Substitutes for blood sacrifice

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obnoxion
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Substitutes for blood sacrifice

Post by obnoxion »

Wine is substituted for - or transusbstantiated to - the blood of Christ in the Eucharist. In Hindu Tantric rituals radish can be substituted for blood offering due to its rajasic qualities. And red flowers are so strongly associated with blood offering, that some Jain rituals prohibit red flowers as too bloody, and replace the with yellow ones.

What substitutes you think would suffice instead of actual blood in ritual context, and why?
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Krepusculum
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Re: Substitutes for blood sacrifice

Post by Krepusculum »

Blood being a substance with very specific and sacred qualities I am not sure it can be replaced. In a devotional setting other subtitutes could to an extent work, yet depending on it's properties and what the intentions of the praxis is and what the practicioner wishes to achieve with it. To use blood is entering a very personal communion and the devotee would most of the times be better off not using it without any deeper research & understanding.

Whether it be blood or any other substance I believe all things have a very specific essence that will have in it's turn have very specific effects, especially on the unconscious & astral plane. By itself and in operational work it emanates a precise resonance that is inherent to it's nature, never arbitrary.
Therefore the use and substitute of this most powerful fluid should be done with prudence, just because we think something could work by our own associations and preferences does not mean it will. And even if it can contribute to the work we should still question our motivations for doing it in the first place.
obnoxion wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:58 pm Wine is substituted for - or transusbstantiated to - the blood of Christ in the Eucharist. In Hindu Tantric rituals radish can be substituted for blood offering due to its rajasic qualities. And red flowers are so strongly associated with blood offering, that some Jain rituals prohibit red flowers as too bloody, and replace the with yellow ones.
I believe these examples of traditional liturgy to be more viable than a random implementation. Though I wonder if such a substitute is energetic or more symbolic.
obnoxion
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Re: Substitutes for blood sacrifice

Post by obnoxion »

Krepusculum wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:42 pm obnoxion kirjoitti: ↑Wine is substituted for - or transusbstantiated to - the blood of Christ in the Eucharist. In Hindu Tantric rituals radish can be substituted for blood offering due to its rajasic qualities. And red flowers are so strongly associated with blood offering, that some Jain rituals prohibit red flowers as too bloody, and replace the with yellow ones.
I believe these examples of traditional liturgy to be more viable than a random implementation. Though I wonder if such a substitute is energetic or more symbolic
In ritual idealism, I believe, only symbols are real and genuinely energetic. So even if actual blood is present, it needs the be vital foremost as a symbol. Then again, blood is such multi-aspected symbol that it cannot be exhausted into wine and vegetables. But perhaps there are correspondences to which its essential meaning can be distilled, depending on the presence of other vital symbols - in some case it could be redishes (as in Tanttic worship of Ganesh): in some cases it could be wine (as in Christian Eucharist): and in some cases, yellow flowers (certain Jain rituals).

I think that the yellow flowers illustrate how far and freely these meanings can flow, yet following this quite beautiful poetic logic. And the fluidity of the life of the symbols is even more stressed when we remember that even wine, a substitite for blood, can sometimes be the pronounced ritual component that becomes substituted, as in some interpretations of the Tantric rite of five forbidden substances.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Nefastos
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Re: Substitutes for blood sacrifice

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I think that this question also bring us to the division between theurgia & goetia. Sod obnoxion's approach is clearly theurgic, while the idea that blood really cannot be replaced is something I would, to a degree, join in the practices of goetia. The lower denizens of elemental regions need not only the valid symbolic (i.e. magic) pattern of summoning, but also the vital essence to form – when we want to use them in this way. As such, I assume only other methods similar to blood is the outbreathing the lower aethers. Mostly that would mean mediumistic capability to exhale one's own aether outside dense body, which would create even better vessel for a goetic summoning than actual blood.

But now this made me to think the actual laboratory-made blood, "unspilled blood", as a substitute. When the meat industry is slowly but certainly overthrown by protein substitutes, this might also create a possibility for a new kind of necromancy (goetia). To create blood without harming a living being would be quite a tremendous blow for how to understand black magic to begin with. (It would not simply remove problems, but it would certainly put them into a new and more beautiful light.)
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Insanus
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Re: Substitutes for blood sacrifice

Post by Insanus »

Red wine is the obvious one. My associative thinking goes to ash, fireplace, wood, but it needs to have that rich taste. Maybe willow branch could have the vitality and intensity? I think dipping a willow branch in strong red wine and biting it could be a substitute for cutting one's flesh.
I have zero idea why.
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Krepusculum
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Re: Substitutes for blood sacrifice

Post by Krepusculum »

obnoxion wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:12 pm In ritual idealism, I believe, only symbols are real and genuinely energetic. So even if actual blood is present, it needs the be vital foremost as a symbol.
Very much so. It's a very important point you make, because if there is no foundational source point for the symbol it can not be energetically developed in a responsible manner. Then again I understand ritual idealism to be the essential part of the backbone & structure yet not necessarily as the whole of the endeavour, although it must be present throughout the process. To my understanding a symbol is energetic in itself but not necesarilly the origin of it's energetic qualities. When we can transcend symbolic and archetypical language they have served their purpose as a mediator bringing a reality closer to us devoid of self projected concepts. It becomes problematic at times when individuals work merely on the axioms of faith as is the case with mass submissive belief. To most such people the symbol works on a very shallow level due to lack of contemplative effort so I sometimes question to what degree a symbol will have it's effect if it is not to some degree intellectually understood in a more profound manner or at least sincerely heartfelt and responsive.
obnoxion wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:12 pm Then again, blood is such multi-aspected symbol that it cannot be exhausted into wine and vegetables. But perhaps there are correspondences to which its essential meaning can be distilled, depending on the presence of other vital symbols - in some case it could be redishes (as in Tanttic worship of Ganesh): in some cases it could be wine (as in Christian Eucharist): and in some cases, yellow flowers (certain Jain rituals).
Correspondeces can for sure be made but indeed because blood is so multi faceted it is not easily replaced. I have no doubts such distillations are possible but when we dissect it from it's original state it also loses some of it's original properties. Maybe it will not reduce it's power to a drastic degree still we are inevitably adding an extra layer to the principle itself and there is the risk of stacking symbols to a point we do not recognize it's source anymore. My question thus is; for what reason must the original object/symbol be replaced with another symbol to mimic or attain results that are inherent to the original. If there is a need to change the first into a secondary form, I gather there must be some ethical or personal reason which in itself is of course not a wrong motive.
Krepusculum
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Re: Substitutes for blood sacrifice

Post by Krepusculum »

Nefastos wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:25 pm I think that this question also bring us to the division between theurgia & goetia. Sod obnoxion's approach is clearly theurgic, while the idea that blood really cannot be replaced is something I would, to a degree, join in the practices of goetia. The lower denizens of elemental regions need not only the valid symbolic (i.e. magic) pattern of summoning, but also the vital essence to form – when we want to use them in this way. As such, I assume only other methods similar to blood is the outbreathing the lower aethers. Mostly that would mean mediumistic capability to exhale one's own aether outside dense body, which would create even better vessel for a goetic summoning than actual blood.

To that extent symbolic idealism would indeed work better when working with the ascending motivations within theurgy.
Cold you elaborate how if not using the physical substance, employing the more purified aetheric properties of blood would enhance a vessel for goetic work?.
Nefastos wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:25 pm But now this made me to think the actual laboratory-made blood, "unspilled blood", as a substitute. When the meat industry is slowly but certainly overthrown by protein substitutes, this might also create a possibility for a new kind of necromancy (goetia). To create blood without harming a living being would be quite a tremendous blow for how to understand black magic to begin with. (It would not simply remove problems, but it would certainly put them into a new and more beautiful light.)
When laboratory meat and blood are made for consumption or other purposes merely not to harm animals, I ponder on the fact if it is not connected to a wish of not wanting to take responsibilty (or be indirectly responsible) of killing another living being and washing your hands with a "clear conscious". What you propose is extremelly interesting in regards to magic but probably can also alterate our approach to occultism in itself. Harvesting flesh and blood in such an environemnt will most likely bring with it new insights but also moral challenges. If it is an alternative to slaughter it may undoubtedly bring up considerations that such creations still contain consciousness and sentience to some degree. It could lead to many forced and willed experimenations trapping and manipulating life force and consciousness.
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Nefastos
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Re: Substitutes for blood sacrifice

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Krepusculum wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:14 pmCold you elaborate how if not using the physical substance, employing the more purified aetheric properties of blood would enhance a vessel for goetic work?.

The benefit of blood in goetia is in that very plasmic (linga sharîra's i.e. aetheric) element it holds, and which works as a conduit from deeper astral. "Blood is life", namely, that life-sustaining and reforming quintessential aether. The red-black blood we see is just coagulation of that essential white aether.

Krepusculum wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:14 pmWhen laboratory meat and blood are made for consumption or other purposes merely not to harm animals, I ponder on the fact if it is not connected to a wish of not wanting to take responsibilty (or be indirectly responsible) of killing another living being and washing your hands with a "clear conscious".

Certainly, to many it can be. But that nuanced individual problem is not of primary importance to the path of ascension aspirant, for the thing that really matters is its result in practical lessening of suffering. Our feelings are often tainted by personal pettiness, but they can still be used for some good result, purifying little by little, even when we ourselves cannot take the full glory of their actual loftiness.

Krepusculum wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:14 pmWhat you propose is extremelly interesting in regards to magic but probably can also alterate our approach to occultism in itself.

This is what I meant, if – as I understand – you, by "our", mean "cultural".

Krepusculum wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:14 pmHarvesting flesh and blood in such an environemnt will most likely bring with it new insights but also moral challenges. If it is an alternative to slaughter it may undoubtedly bring up considerations that such creations still contain consciousness and sentience to some degree.

Exactly. I predict that the culture, unless taken quickly back by a set of serious and acute catastrophes, will very soon face the challenge of understanding "individuality" and "the soul-essence" (not by these words) in a very different new way. How the plasmic forms of gestalt consciousness emerge in, say, programs, robotics, and petri dish of nerve & brain tissue. So far these kind of ponderings are interesting for just a handful of people, but just like what happened with the Spiritualism phenomena outbreak in the 19th century, very little would be needed to put the things into very different global cultural reconsideration.

Krepusculum wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:14 pmIt could lead to many forced and willed experimenations trapping and manipulating life force and consciousness.

You are not wrong, and this is one reason (of many similar reasons both in cultural & individual life) why speaking more about ethics and a bit less about magic praxis is what the brotherhood tries to do.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Krepusculum
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Re: Substitutes for blood sacrifice

Post by Krepusculum »

Nefastos wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:41 pm The benefit of blood in goetia is in that very plasmic (linga sharîra's i.e. aetheric) element it holds, and which works as a conduit from deeper astral. "Blood is life", namely, that life-sustaining and reforming quintessential aether. The red-black blood we see is just coagulation of that essential white aether.
This transports me to the scene of the crucifixion of Jesus when out of his wound gushed blood and water. In a series of publications by Judith von Halle, she arguments that due to Christs divinity his blood was greatly etheric, thus more purified and less base. The blood was caught by Joseph of Arimathea in a chalice and consequently taken and poured at specific geographic locations to enable a subtle yet permanent and developing metamorphosis of the earth. When taking into consideration what you explained about the goetic interactions with the etheric then the Grail legend also takes on a more holistic perspective.
Nefastos wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:41 pm Exactly. I predict that the culture, unless taken quickly back by a set of serious and acute catastrophes, will very soon face the challenge of understanding "individuality" and "the soul-essence" (not by these words) in a very different new way. How the plasmic forms of gestalt consciousness emerge in, say, programs, robotics, and petri dish of nerve & brain tissue. So far these kind of ponderings are interesting for just a handful of people, but just like what happened with the Spiritualism phenomena outbreak in the 19th century, very little would be needed to put the things into very different global cultural reconsideration.
I think about this a lot as these contemporary and future developments enable a new panorama for occultism. Our symbolic language and thus perception will change through the exploration of uncharted territories crucially depending on the ethical and qualitative aspects for formulaic doctrines. Rooted in archaic arcana therefore staying truthful to the tradition of ascendance allowing us to converge with the denizens and possibilties of the current and coming age.
obnoxion
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Re: Substitutes for blood sacrifice

Post by obnoxion »

Krepusculum wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:26 pm In a series of publications by Judith von Halle, she arguments that due to Christs divinity his blood was greatly etheric, thus more purified and less base.
This brings to mind a related question I've been meaning to ask about: Does anyone know of traditions about the potential of other bodily secretions of Jesus Christ. I remember He used saliva to heal, didn't He. But what about other bodily secretions...? Or was He in some way free of certain secretions...?

I mean, I've seen in a documentary a Georgian monk, who says cerain kind of Christian monks don't nead to wash themselves because they don't sweat.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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