Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

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Nefastos
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Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

Post by Nefastos »

[EDIT: Split from the discussion on Ethical Principles.]

Several interesting points which might or might not be interconnected. If needed, these can be splitted into discussions of their own. They seem to discuss much different facets of ethical or moral principles.

Malja wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:15 pm
a very pleasurable tantric practice in which you feed yourself to your enemies. I wonder if all the people who practice that are somehow masochistic :lol:

I don't necessarily think so. (I'm aware of the practice but do not practice such myself.) But you have a great point: I think that many of the Satanic / Left Hand Path practices are also that kind of tantric alchemy which takes some less than desirable psychological need in us, and use it in order to create something beautiful and good. Like our virtues can become hindrances when we use them fanatically, likewise our vices or sins can be turned into blessings, when we perceive them and turn them into devotional practices. This, naturally, demands a lot of deep work, and most likely many years of re-balancing operations. Yet one part of the "supreme energetical economics" is, I strongly believe, that every energy there is has its place, and we just have to find the way to place those mind bending puzzle pieces (of our sins and trauma-imposed faculties) into places they are able to do good.

Malja wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:15 pm
I take that this atmosphere in which we live nowadays, where the most horrible fate is being mediocre and invisible, encourages people to take unhealthy roles, only so that they could feel that they matter and exist.

That's also a good point. Sometimes I feel it's hard for me to understand the people who haven't seen the pre-internet era and its slower paced, calmer world with less fruitful interaction, but also less fruitless interaction, and the need of constant presentation. That visibility in itself would be always positive is very hard for a Finnish mind to cope with. I am glad that the non-Finnish (?) part of me at least accepts happily the need for constant openness – a thing that comes close enough to be usable in the cultural situation. That's something the different generations can build upon equally.

Ave wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:32 pm
Why did Jeesus encouraged people to give away all their posessions? I have thought a lot of ethics of money and consuming.

The old friar/bhikkhu ethics of poverty were an important part of early theosophy in Finland, too. Pekka Ervast was a great fan of Leo Tolstoy, who – at least on paper – was very societally active in this regard.

Yesterday when I was doing the dishes after eating an enjoyable poor man's dinner (an onion and tofu that had costed me less than 2 €), but being very happy about many material things in my life, a thought struck me: There is much talk about the "standard of living" in the society, especially in these days when many people feel their monetary situation seriously threatened by the crisis, but I think that much of this is about a kind of demand for mental laziness. When a person has to think about what he can afford in a grocery store, he considers himself wretched.

I have lived whole my life (after childhood) in quite extreme poverty, in Finnish standards. (Which has nothing to do with actual poverty.) The five years when I was a student and had a possibility for a loan, I considered my monetary situation royal. Hundreds of euros to spend every month, that's almost too much! Yet I see that very few people around me sharing such a thought to any degree. Whatever the sum of money a person is making or taking, he most likely considers it barely adequate, and has a ton of problems with bills or things he would like to have, or he would like to have more to invest. I seriously think that the constant need to count every single euro I use has taught me incredibly valuable things about energetical economy as well – occult & spiritual channeling of energy in perfect balance. Money is, after all, as Dostoevsky put it (always that Dostoevsky!), "minted freedom". This can be read in many ways. Of course, one who has a lot of money has a lot of freedom to do as he wants (I wouldn't turn down a million or two, and would have clear ideas how to use that), but also, money seems to "mint" into matter our actual freedom, i.e. take it away, force it into a shape that wouldn't necessary belong to it.

Yet I would never consider poverty itself as freeing. Least of all the actual poverty in the countries where that word means something. It can only be a neutral instrument. Money – even a great amount of money – is nothing in itself; not good, not bad. Like every human prestige, it is poisonous to some situations and health-giving in others.

Keeping the brotherhood out of monetary issues is one of the things I consider giving the Star of Azazel a certain very practical occult blessing, though. I have understood this only later, but building the brotherhood this way seems to have been very wise. Of course, with money we could build temples and attain visibility, and so on. But the cost in spiritual wholeness is often quite steep for those things, as we know from the past of the spiritual organization, at least when the compromise is made too soon.

Smaragd wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:41 pm
Thus I am again the scapegoat castout defending the opposite of underdog, which is the underdog in a sphere full of underdogs.

Both the idea & how you say it are golden. This sphere should be either a song or a spell.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Ave »

Nefastos wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm

I seriously think that the constant need to count every single euro I use has taught me incredibly valuable things about energetical economy as well – occult & spiritual channeling of energy in perfect balance.

This economy of things is very interesting. Even more so, because I've struggled with it quite a bit. I myself have been spending my assets in a very care-free manner. I've literally always been over-spending my money and energy - and tried to figure out what's this all about. There's no harsh compulsiveness in my shopping habits, but I have had an expensive taste and lifestyle (staying nights at hotels etc.), even though I buy nearly all my clothes second hand. My father, being from very wealthy household, was a true prodigal son. Except he never repented. But he once said, "It's odd that you can own everything - and still have nothing." We have always been well off with money - but not so emotionally and spiritually. The economics of energy have been volatile within this familiar line - polarised between lethargy and manic, chaotic flow. My unconsious motto reganding money/energy has been: spend all you got until there's nothing left to spend. This kind of mindset is exhaustive and I'm learning to regulate myself better.

I have fantasies of minimalistic lifestyle, and I can derive true pleasure from certain ascetism (eating nothing but cold porridge and raw cabbage and living in my not-so-up-to-date old house). Yet I indulge myself in excess. I for example buy expencive ice-cream even though I know it gives me nothing but a momentary sweet taste in my mouth. This momentary sweet taste is my master, I know. The childlike, momentary, bodily pleasure - when with that 7 euros they could have bought a goat/goats in Africa. I feel that I'm just a hypocrit if I allow myself futile excesses like that. Eating over-priced ice-cream feels insane really, given the fact that the money should have been put into a more profitable place - it should be given to those really in need.
Nefastos wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm

Keeping the brotherhood out of monetary issues is one of the things I consider giving the Star of Azazel a certain very practical occult blessing, though. I have understood this only later, but building the brotherhood this way seems to have been very wise. Of course, with money we could build temples and attain visibility, and so on. But the cost in spiritual wholeness is often quite steep for those things, as we know from the past of the spiritual organization, at least when the compromise is made too soon.
It's fun to think how things would be different, if you'd desided otherwise. To me this current path seems logical.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.


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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Cerastes »

Ave wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:27 am
Nefastos wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm

I seriously think that the constant need to count every single euro I use has taught me incredibly valuable things about energetical economy as well – occult & spiritual channeling of energy in perfect balance.

This economy of things is very interesting. Even more so, because I've struggled with it quite a bit. I myself have been spending my assets in a very care-free manner. I've literally always been over-spending my money and energy - and tried to figure out what's this all about. There's no harsh compulsiveness in my shopping habits, but I have had an expensive taste and lifestyle (staying nights at hotels etc.), even though I buy nearly all my clothes second hand. My father, being from very wealthy household, was a true prodigal son. Except he never repented. But he once said, "It's odd that you can own everything - and still have nothing." We have always been well off with money - but not so emotionally and spiritually. The economics of energy have been volatile within this familiar line - polarised between lethargy and manic, chaotic flow. My unconsious motto reganding money/energy has been: spend all you got until there's nothing left to spend. This kind of mindset is exhaustive and I'm learning to regulate myself better.

I have fantasies of minimalistic lifestyle, and I can derive true pleasure from certain ascetism (eating nothing but cold porridge and raw cabbage and living in my not-so-up-to-date old house). Yet I indulge myself in excess. I for example buy expencive ice-cream even though I know it gives me nothing but a momentary sweet taste in my mouth. This momentary sweet taste is my master, I know. The childlike, momentary, bodily pleasure - when with that 7 euros they could have bought a goat/goats in Africa. I feel that I'm just a hypocrit if I allow myself futile excesses like that. Eating over-priced ice-cream feels insane really, given the fact that the money should have been put into a more profitable place - it should be given to those really in need.
Nefastos wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm

Keeping the brotherhood out of monetary issues is one of the things I consider giving the Star of Azazel a certain very practical occult blessing, though. I have understood this only later, but building the brotherhood this way seems to have been very wise. Of course, with money we could build temples and attain visibility, and so on. But the cost in spiritual wholeness is often quite steep for those things, as we know from the past of the spiritual organization, at least when the compromise is made too soon.
It's fun to think how things would be different, if you'd desided otherwise. To me this current path seems logical.
I was just about to write something about his either.
We should turn it into a separate topic.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Occult Economics

Post by Nefastos »

Ave wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:27 am
The childlike, momentary, bodily pleasure - when with that 7 euros they could have bought a goat/goats in Africa. I feel that I'm just a hypocrit if I allow myself futile excesses like that.

Mmm, I try to tread on lightly, not to go to the forbidden zone of politics. (I already felt a watchful eye over me when I wrote the message above.) But I think that these things cannot really put at the same line. We can (and should) try to think very economically & in the way that takes into consideration the whole global picture, but in case it would be easy just to choose whether to put that seven €s into my own little pleasure or into a possibility for meaningful life for a family, that wouldn't be a choice at all. But sadly that is not how easily things actually go. To keep in the safe abstract (esoterical & psychological) side of these energetics of money, we must take quite an humble state how far we can see the results of our energetical juggling. Granted, and just because of that, intention is once again what counts. Even if my juggling is imperfect – and it always is – an ardent wish to help is good. But that wish for helping is not allowed to be made just one more neurotic self-defence system, with which I buy for myself good conscience, or punish myself for some actually mistaken or transferred feelings of guilt. (I'm not saying that you do! Just talking about a common dilemma that's being brought up here.)

Ave wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:27 am
This economy of things is very interesting. Even more so, because I've struggled with it quite a bit. I myself have been spending my assets in a very care-free manner. (...) a true prodigal son. Except he never repented.

That's interesting, it seems that we have exactly the opposite parental situation in this. I snatched my own half-neurotic half-monastic discipline from my mother, who still counts every single cent she spends in her monthly log. (She wouldn't have to.) As a child, I really liked playing with money. It was not so much owning it (although that too was very nice) but to think about it, count & calculate, buy & sell things: what a pleasure. That only stopped when I started burning bridges as a teenager, when I thought that in order to truly dedicate myself to occultism, I would have to annihilate all such temperamental and selfish nonsense from my life. So this trait got a different possibility to present itself when I started my career as an author. :lol:
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Ave »

Nefastos wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:16 am
intention is once again what counts. Even if my juggling is imperfect – and it always is – an ardent wish to help is good. But that wish for helping is not allowed to be made just one more neurotic self-defence system, with which I buy for myself good conscience, or punish myself for some actually mistaken or transferred feelings of guilt.
Yes, the intention! I've tried to practice consious allowance also - if I indulge in over priced ice-cream, I just do and why not just be one with the indulgence and examine it?! But still, I just don't seem to get over the fact that I'm just a person who in some cases chooses a sweet taste in her mouth over being charitable. So maybe it's my child-like selfishness that I have a hard time to own. And the fact that the sweet taste is - to some part of my being - that important thing. It's just seems so annoyngly irrational and undeveloped. But that's where I start, once again, then...
Nefastos wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:16 am

That's interesting, it seems that we have exactly the opposite parental situation in this. I snatched my own half-neurotic half-monastic discipline from my mother, who still counts every single cent she spends to her monthly log. (She wouldn't have to.) As a child, I really liked playing with money. It was not so much owning it (although that too was very nice) but to think about it, count & calculate, buy & sell things: what a pleasure. That only stopped when I started burning bridges as a teenager, when I thought that in order to truly dedicate myself to occultism, I would have to annihilate all such temperamental and selfish nonsense from my life. So this trait got a different possibility to present itself when I started my career as an author. :lol:
(Such a adorable picture of little Nefastos playing with accounts and assets! These skills come handy being an author in Finland, maybe you foresaw your career. But seriously, scarcity is a great teacher. ) These kind of mirroring experieces are intriquing as they tend to share light to each other (and also in real life build interesting frictions and/or synergies).
Cerastes wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:36 am
I was just about to write something about his either.
We should turn it into a separate topic.
Goog idea.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.


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Re: Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

Post by Cerastes »

Thanks, fra Nefastos for opening another topic.
Nefastos wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm
Of course, one who has a lot of money has a lot of freedom to do as he wants (I wouldn't turn down a million or two, and would have clear ideas how to use that), but also, money seems to "mint" into matter our actual freedom, i.e. take it away, force it into a shape that wouldn't necessary belong to it.

Yet I would never consider poverty itself as freeing. Least of all the actual poverty in the countries where that word means something. It can only be a neutral instrument. Money – even a great amount of money – is nothing in itself; not good, not bad. Like every human prestige, it is poisonous to some situations and health-giving in others.

Keeping the brotherhood out of monetary issues is one of the things I consider giving the Star of Azazel a certain very practical occult blessing, though. I have understood this only later, but building the brotherhood this way seems to have been very wise. Of course, with money we could build temples and attain visibility, and so on. But the cost in spiritual wholeness is often quite steep for those things, as we know from the past of the spiritual organization, at least when the compromise is made too soon.
This is in line with my opinion.
I believe that neither poverty nor wealth is per se is an obstacle to spiritual wholeness. But identification with material status or material possessions can be a hindrance in any case. A very poor person may attach more importance to material things than a wealthy person. Of course, there is also the clichéd greedy rich, whose entire purpose in life is to accumulate more wealth. Conscious renunciation is a good instrument to get closer to the spirit. In my experience, it is not good for the soul in the long run if everything you want is always immediately available. It was part of my learning process to understand that occultism does not work like that at all. Obviously there is no 24hours delivery service from amazon for occult initiations. This is one problemetic mindset of modern age that might a hinderance for spiritual developement.

Poverty in western countries also has many subjective factors. A person who identifies him/herself primarily through external feedback will perceive him/herself as poor when the others own more. If s/he relies on own experiences, s/he might consider him/herself poor if the available money got less than before. Therefore it could be asked what poverty actually is.
The Western citizen always carries a more or less present feeling of guilt, because we are painfully aware of how ridiculous our material problems are compared to other countries. I have often found myself feeling guilty when I felt suffering or pain because there was no material and therfore obvious reason for it. It almost felt like ingratitude to suffer.
Ave wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:27 am
I have fantasies of minimalistic lifestyle, and I can derive true pleasure from certain ascetism (eating nothing but cold porridge and raw cabbage and living in my not-so-up-to-date old house). Yet I indulge myself in excess. I for example buy expencive ice-cream even though I know it gives me nothing but a momentary sweet taste in my mouth. This momentary sweet taste is my master, I know. The childlike, momentary, bodily pleasure - when with that 7 euros they could have bought a goat/goats in Africa. I feel that I'm just a hypocrit if I allow myself futile excesses like that. Eating over-priced ice-cream feels insane really, given the fact that the money should have been put into a more profitable place - it should be given to those really in need.
I re-developed a very strict habit of fasting almost everything from end of February until the beginning of April. (no sugar, no car, no coffee, no alcohol ect.) That’s just a leftover from Catholicism that has proven to be very useful.
Usually I’m not all that strict with consumption. I find it much more important to be conscious about what you are doing than to always forbid yourself every irrationality. Actually, I mainly renounce the things that do not take to much effort. For example, being a vegetarian is no problem for me at all. I don't like meat/fish very much anyway and I find the ethical value much higher than me longing for a steak maybe once or twice a year.
This might seem like a very lazy way. But in the end money is not the only resource we should consider. Nobody who is not in balance with his energies, his needs and his psyche can really help others. So if someone fights all day long only with himself it inevitably leads to egocentrism.

PS: You subconsciously manipulated me. I want ice cream now.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Re: Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

Post by Polyhymnia »

Where I work I receive payment for the day in cash, so I often just have money in my wallet, and I would struggle at least once a week with ethics in my mind. The street I work on is known for having a surplus of homeless people, and I would often count how many I saw so I could have an equal amount of coin ready for each person, and there have been times I have given larger sums only to feel sad that they're out the next day, clearly strung out because I helped enable them. That latter scenario has only happened two times in recent memory, one where the young woman was traveling with a backpack and when we struck up conversation she told me she was just visiting the city, and was trying to get to her mother's house a few hours away, and the other one was a derelict brother of a friend of mine, who I happened to see begging.
I grew up in a house that survived below the poverty line, so though it's true that I don't have much of an attachment to money, I've really had to examine the emotions that have arisen.
First scenario where I'm giving small, equal amounts of coin:

My heart goes out to them--> I feel like I have plenty to share --> and then here, after I've given, there's that good feeling one gets when they've done a good act. Am I addicted to that feeling? Is my reason for giving self serving?

Second scenario where I give the larger sum:

My heart goes out to them--> In my head I ask myself if I'm being naive. I know their story is most likely a lie, but there's 10% of me who wants to believe that it's true. Pro- it's true, and I get them a little closer to that goal. Con- it's a con. I have just enabled a habit, and they will be here in the morning doing the same thing. --> That do-good feeling is replaced by worry. Did I just enable an overdose?--> I see them the next day and feel sadness.

In the instance with the one woman who was supposedly trying to get to her mother, I drove home just devastated, and feeling quite foolish. I sat at my altar when I got home and prayed that I could become wiser. It seems I had alot invested, emotionally, in her actually telling the truth, and it is incredibly unwise and unfair of me to place that much, I don't want to say faith, but that much pressure, perhaps, on her decisions. The money didn't upset me nearly as much as the emotional labour I had put in worrying and hoping. And that's a pretty selfish reason for giving, too. When I saw the young lady again, our eyes met and she looked away immediately. I went up to her and just asked how she was doing. It seemed as though it pained her greatly to look at me. I haven't seen her since.

What an ugly truth.

I don't think that the entire truth is ugly. I do think that there is a part of me that is inclined to give of my time, or my money, because that's how my family modelled acting when I was younger. My dad would always invite homeless people to eat with us, and we would have newly released prisoners stay at our house until they could get on their feet. But I had to learn the hard way, as my dad had to learn when one of those prisoners pulled a knife, threatening to kill us so he could steal our car, that humans are incredibly complex. They won't act in accordance to your will, because their will isn't usually the ideal scenario you've fostered in your mind for them. And that's the ugly part. The projection of your wants and needs on another person, and feeding your own saviour complex.

I think I'm managing to be a little more wise nowadays. My focus is more on connection, a fist bump, an ask on how their day is going, singing a song with them. Beyond that I find that volunteering my time to organizations much better equipped to service our homeless population has been a good way of going about it. I'd be lying if I said it also didn't make me feel good, still. But isn't that one of the big ethical questions about altruism? Does it stop being honest altruism if the benefit runs both ways?

I guess I'm still doing the same things, but my currency has changed mostly from money to energy. And I find it's harder to enable a habit with energy.

That was really long. I've been quarantined for over two weeks and I guess I have alot of words in me.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

Post by Malja »

Nefastos wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm
Malja kirjoitti: ↑
Pe Maalis 27, 2020 5:15 pm
a very pleasurable tantric practice in which you feed yourself to your enemies. I wonder if all the people who practice that are somehow masochistic

I don't necessarily think so. (I'm aware of the practice but do not practice such myself.) But you have a great point: I think that many of the Satanic / Left Hand Path practices are also that kind of tantric alchemy which takes some less than desirable psychological need in us, and use it in order to create something beautiful and good. Like our virtues can become hindrances when we use them fanatically, likewise our vices or sins can be turned into blessings, when we perceive them and turn them into devotional practices. This, naturally, demands a lot of deep work, and most likely many years of re-balancing operations. Yet one part of the "supreme energetical economics" is, I strongly believe, that every energy there is has its place, and we just have to find the way to place those mind bending puzzle pieces (of our sins and trauma-imposed faculties) into places they are able to do good. ↑
I agree, and as far as someone like me whose psychology studies are narrowed to high school and life school understands, also evolutionary psychology backs this up. At least for the part that all feelings and needs exist for a reason, though they might be misplaced and unbalanced.
Perhaps Cerastes knows more about evolutionary psychology? I´d tag her if I I knew how or if it´s even possible.
For me the key question is how not to use tantric approach as an excuse for not changing my ways. Probably the solution would be mostly acting from the place of my own needs, instead of desires or fears. Which is of course easier said then done :P
Nefastos wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm
Malja kirjoitti: ↑
Pe Maalis 27, 2020 5:15 pm
I take that this atmosphere in which we live nowadays, where the most horrible fate is being mediocre and invisible, encourages people to take unhealthy roles, only so that they could feel that they matter and exist.

That's also a good point. Sometimes I feel it's hard for me to understand the people who haven't seen the pre-internet era and its slower paced, calmer world with less fruitful interaction, but also less fruitless interaction, and the need of constant presentation. That visibility in itself would be always positive is very hard for a Finnish mind to cope with. I am glad that the non-Finnish (?) part of me at least accepts happily the need for constant openness – a thing that comes close enough to be usable in the cultural situation. That's something the different generations can build upon equally.
I was already fifteen years old when I got my first mobile phone and spent years telling my friends that I´ll be joining Facebook next week, yet somehow I´ve managed to get hooked with the instant gratification of those little white numbers on red backround. Though clearly I´m not the only luddite who has fallen for this, instant gratification is instant gratification after all.
I used to be really strict on the matter that one should not seek attention for themselves, only for a greater cause, but later I learned that everyone needs a certain amount of attention, so I´m more understanding about this towards myself and others. And of course it´s never merely your persona which is highlighted by the attention, but also the ideas you represent in the minds of the audience.
Ave wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:27 am
Nefastos kirjoitti: ↑
Su Maalis 29, 2020 12:37 pm
Cerastes wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:23 pm
I find it much more important to be conscious about what you are doing than to always forbid yourself every irrationality.
I seriously think that the constant need to count every single euro I use has taught me incredibly valuable things about energetical economy as well – occult & spiritual channeling of energy in perfect balance.

This economy of things is very interesting. Even more so, because I've struggled with it quite a bit. I myself have been spending my assets in a very care-free manner. I've literally always been over-spending my money and energy - and tried to figure out what's this all about. There's no harsh compulsiveness in my shopping habits, but I have had an expensive taste and lifestyle (staying nights at hotels etc.), even though I buy nearly all my clothes second hand. My father, being from very wealthy household, was a true prodigal son. Except he never repented. But he once said, "It's odd that you can own everything - and still have nothing." We have always been well off with money - but not so emotionally and spiritually. The economics of energy have been volatile within this familiar line - polarised between lethargy and manic, chaotic flow. My unconsious motto reganding money/energy has been: spend all you got until there's nothing left to spend. This kind of mindset is exhaustive and I'm learning to regulate myself better.
I´m glad that you shared your views on the matter, for like Ave, I struggle with the channeling of my resources too. I hate that I have to (or should) use my capacity to counting pennies, because it seems to me that the time and effort spend is taken from more important matters, so it´s refreshing to know that it doesn´t necessarily have to be so. My spending is mostly linked with my passionate dedication in performing as little household chores as possible, so I keep on consuming way too much rather expensive snacks in order to avoid cooking and washing the dishes.
Cerastes wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:23 pm
A person who identifies him/herself primarily through external feedback will perceive him/herself as poor when the others own more. If s/he relies on own experiences, s/he might consider him/herself poor if the available money got less than before. Therefore it could be asked what poverty actually is.
This is something I´ve been pondering lately. Well not exactly considering poverty, but comparison in general. For a beast like me, who tends to take refuge in the present moment in a bit too escapistic way, there really is no other way to evaluate her performance other than comparing to others. This is solely due to the inability to remember how I did a month, week or even a day ago. Dementia here I come..
Cerastes wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:23 pm
I find it much more important to be conscious about what you are doing than to always forbid yourself every irrationality.
True dat. Once you forbid something from yourself, your mind begins to search for ways how to do the very thing that is forbidden.
Cerastes wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:23 pm
But isn't that one of the big ethical questions about altruism? Does it stop being honest altruism if the benefit runs both ways?
I used to think that there is no "true" altruism, because nobody would do anything for others if they wouldn´t somehow gain some satisfaction from it.
Now I think that´s just how we´re built: universal principles work through the chemicals in our bodies and receiving delight from altruistic actions doesn´t lessen their value.
You wouldn´t have the energy to keep on doing them without the good feelings.
Polyhymnia wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:05 pm
That was really long. I've been quarantined for over two weeks and I guess I have alot of words in me.
Hope your quarantine is because of travelling and not because of covid-19. If the latter is the case, I wish it´ll be easy on you.
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Nefastos
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Re: Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

Post by Nefastos »

Malja wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:50 pm
someone like me whose psychology studies are narrowed to high school and life school...

I speak a lot of psychology, but what I mean by it is mostly to take one's subconscious (which always includes childhood traumas) into serious consideration. My own psychological gnosis is 100 % – or let's say 90 % – kitchen sink.

Malja wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:50 pm
For me the key question is how not to use tantric approach as an excuse for not changing my ways.

Everything can be taken in back or wrong way. In my books I have many times discussed how sins can be used as virtues when they are purified and understood. Similarly, virtues are very easy to use in a way they practically become sins or vices. (For example, I overstress patience when I should use courage instead, only because the former is easier for me.) There really is no way to safeguard one from mistakes, but the constant striving to do the right thing. Even when actually doing the left.

Malja wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:50 pm
And of course it´s never merely your persona which is highlighted by the attention, but also the ideas you represent in the minds of the audience.

Once again, an interesting topic for a thread on its own: the plurality of the entities in representation. Many people who thirst after attention are able to do good by bringing good points to discussion even when their fundamental agenda is to gain personal visibility. Here we once again have this possibility to make sins work for good things.

Malja wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:50 pm
Cerastes wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:23 pm
But isn't that one of the big ethical questions about altruism? Does it stop being honest altruism if the benefit runs both ways?

I used to think that there is no "true" altruism, because nobody would do anything for others if they wouldn´t somehow gain some satisfaction from it.

I used to ponder upon these things endlessly, to be able to free myself from egotism. Finally I went to such extremes in this that I had finally turned evil into a virtue, because doing something that would be enjoyable to me would be selfish, even if it'd help others. Going too far into "good" is to emerge from the blackest of evils, because going too far always tells of personal problems, and finally the mind breaks in its stressed emphases. Finally it dawned to me that the problem is not egotism, which we cannot fight in a way of endlessly thinking about the self (duh) and problems of selfhood, however philosophically, but the problem is not doing work for the others. Whether that helps oneself or not is not meaningful per se. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It is simply besides the point. When we think about ethics, we (should) mostly think about the Other, and the result for Self is not the only or even the most important question in this.

Thank you for your story, Polyhymnia, these are very important things to think through over and over again, and it seems you are much more grounded and serious in that process than most of us!
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Occult Economics (Distribution of Energy & the Symbol of Money)

Post by Cerastes »

Malja wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:50 pm
I don't necessarily think so. (I'm aware of the practice but do not practice such myself.) But you have a great point: I think that many of the Satanic / Left Hand Path practices are also that kind of tantric alchemy which takes some less than desirable psychological need in us, and use it in order to create something beautiful and good. Like our virtues can become hindrances when we use them fanatically, likewise our vices or sins can be turned into blessings, when we perceive them and turn them into devotional practices. This, naturally, demands a lot of deep work, and most likely many years of re-balancing operations. Yet one part of the "supreme energetical economics" is, I strongly believe, that every energy there is has its place, and we just have to find the way to place those mind bending puzzle pieces (of our sins and trauma-imposed faculties) into places they are able to do good. ↑

I agree, and as far as someone like me whose psychology studies are narrowed to high school and life school understands, also evolutionary psychology backs this up. At least for the part that all feelings and needs exist for a reason, though they might be misplaced and unbalanced.
Perhaps Cerastes knows more about evolutionary psychology? I´d tag her if I I knew how or if it´s even possible.
For me the key question is how not to use tantric approach as an excuse for not changing my ways. Probably the solution would be mostly acting from the place of my own needs, instead of desires or fears. Which is of course easier said then done

Fra Nefastos already put it in words much better than I could.
I would agree from -my- psychological point of view, although of course there is no consistent consensus on this. (There never is) Basically, in my opinion, everything finds its way to the surface and manifests itself in one way o another. This knowledge is partly used on a therapeutic level in the so called Catharsis methode. For example in aggression therapy, where violent men and women learn to use their penchant for physical aggression, for sports ect. and thus create positive experiences with it. One cannot prohibit or suppress emotions, drives and needs. But you can change the behavior, i.e. the type of manifestation, that follows the emotion/drive/need. Anger does not have to automatically result in someone's head being punched. If someone lives out their emotions in a way that has negative consequences, then they get a perverted relationship to this very emotion because they already know the consequences before they start acting. In this case, anger also receives a negative suggestion, which in turn makes defective behavior more likely. This also happens in anxiety disorder when people start to fear their own fear. You own anger can make you angry and your own love can make you loving, depending on the behavior and the expected result of the said emotion.
This sounds very easily in theory, but it used in therapeutic environment within professional psychological treatment. In most cases it is not a “do it yourself” approach, because it can go terribly wrong and end up in triggering or perverting emotions.
Nefastos wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:10 pm
Malja wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:50 pm

Cerastes wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:23 pm
But isn't that one of the big ethical questions about altruism? Does it stop being honest altruism if the benefit runs both ways?


I used to think that there is no "true" altruism, because nobody would do anything for others if they wouldn´t somehow gain some satisfaction from it.
For some reason, the original question from sor Polyhymnia is marked with my name.
I agree on the point that altruism always has a little residue of egoism that doen't make it any less valuable.
Actually I find sor Polyhymnias comment(s) quite heart warming. They always keep me from my tendency to intellectualize the human psyche as a object of study instead of being empathic.
The idea of a pure sacrifice in altruism is strongly idealistic and as such it can be strived for but we are still not ideal beings.
Malja wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:50 pm
For a beast like me, who tends to take refuge in the present moment in a bit too escapistic way, there really is no other way to evaluate her performance other than comparing to others. This is solely due to the inability to remember how I did a month, week or even a day ago. Dementia here I come..

Well, actually it fits together quite well. People who perceive and maybe even absorb many energies and signals from their fellow human beings are sometimes less aware of their own experiences. In extreme cases, people can even understand others better than themselves, until that completely stops. Can you remember how other people did better than how you did? (Rhetorical question) If so, then you might be a damn good listener and therapist.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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