Spiritual Experiences

Astral and paranormal experiences, dreams and visions.
Mars
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Spiritual Experiences

Post by Mars »

Have you had any spiritual experiences? What do you classify as a spiritual experience? Do you trust them? Seen, felt or otherwise experienced a presence, for instance, or an overwhelming feeling of love?

I've had a number of what I call spiritual experiences as well as psychic ones, but I'm very careful in placing any importance to them. The category of a "spiritual experience" is obviously a hard one and different authors have talked about them in a greatly varied manner. That's why I don't want to narrow this topic down to a specific angle.
Gangleri

Re: Spiritual Experiences

Post by Gangleri »

Mars wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:51 pm Have you had any spiritual experiences?
I've had numerous ones. The most important ones have happened in the beginning of my path, which could possibly be classified roughly under the title "coming to faith" although not in that sentimental or sub-intellectual sense the term is usually understood. When reading the Fosforos the first time I had a tremendous experience of both Satan and Christ; the experience was first and foremost an intellectual one, but it also had emotional undertones. The most recent spiritual experience was in the winter, when in the midst of a mundane day I had a mystical experience of an "eternal waterfall in the heights" from which all existence springs forth; I think it could be called as an experience of Cosmic Christ.
Mars wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:51 pm What do you classify as a spiritual experience? Do you trust them?
I would classify a spiritual experience as something that is experienced while completely sober and with a clear mind. For example, I have never done psychedelics and would not consider meeting with some astral or psychic entity while under the influence as a spiritual experience per sae, although it can have spiritual consequences of course.

Regarding more psychic experiences, I'm having them all the time but have grown to be more suspicious of them; at least I don't trust them in the same sense that these more important ones.

Also other experiences that I have had while or after reading a spiritual text and contemplating on it, I would classify as a spiritual experience.
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Beshiira
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Re: Spiritual Experiences

Post by Beshiira »

”What qualifies as spiritual experience” is something I've pondered a lot. What separates holy from the mundane or actual divine experiences from some ego-colored illusory images?

One could always say that everything is essentially spiritual, and when we are not "having spiritual experiences", we just fail to see that. (And then again, what exactly do we mean by "spiritual experience" is already quite a large question...) But it's not a very satisfying answer, even if true at some level, and the whole issue is of course very complicated and we can't really settle for some "everything is everything" statement alone.

In general, once again, I would be quite hesitant in placing importance on unusual experiences, as also suggested in the opening post. I'm not sure how trustworthy our experiences are to begin with. Why should they be an authority of any sort, and what relevance to anyone else than ourselves could there be in some experiences that we have had? No matter how incredible, how life-changing, how wonderful or beautiful the experience is, no matter how much I feel that I have experienced something that is beyond experience itself, someone can always come and argue that, well, it was still just another experience, why should I care?

So I don't think there are simple objective answers to these questions. I have had experiences that I don't hesitate to call holy, but I'm not sure if there's much use in talking about them too much to others. Usually in such experiences there is basically ”no room for questioning”, even for an overthinking mind like mine. It has to do with, for example, a very direct and living understanding of guidance, and letting go of your petty ego in the presence of something much larger and much more important. Sometime I have livingly felt simultaneously the tragedy and the beauty of this world, and thus felt melancholic and comforted at the same time.

And here again, if someone says that all this is still nothing but another layer of my ego coloring reality, there's not much I can say against it. And I guess there's no way around it that our minds are coloring reality in any case. One could say that the less this coloring happens, the more spiritual our experience is, but even then it's still just quite subjective. (I've used the word "coloring" here; if we instead, for example, speak of the mind creating reality, the tone of these thoughts changes somewhat and we have new angles to consider once again.)

If I try to think of some objective guidelines regarding these ”qualifications”, I can only come up with something rather simple: Spiritual experience is something that draws our attention towards Spirit, as opposed to something else. It's something that makes our focus shift from only the material reality and our personas to a larger and less ego-centered view.
"Ja kun minun kirkkauteni kulkee ohitse, asetan minä sinut kallion rotkoon ja peitän sinut kädelläni, kunnes olen kulkenut ohi.
Kun minä sitten siirrän pois käteni, näet sinä minun selkäpuoleni; mutta minun kasvojani ei voi kenkään katsoa."
Gangleri

Re: Spiritual Experiences

Post by Gangleri »

Good points Beshiira.

Maybe I would (re-)define spiritual experience as something that causes a fundamental change in a being's worldview, and leads optimally to ethical change in one's behavior and into a new way to see the world. Perhaps we could even say that a spiritual experience is like "a taste of initiation" in a small scale, in the sense that one's mind and consciousness gets a taste of divine things and something that can be called holy or sacred. A virtual initiation can be seen as a spiritual experience for sure, even though it doesn't mean yet initiation in the strictest sense of the term, but marks a beginning (initiate = to begin). In this sense spiritual experiences are essential, but to chase after them in some "spiritual hedonism" of sorts is an error in my opinion; once one has had a vision of higher things, one should chase that state by fundamentally changing one's orientation towards those higher things, and experiences can be let to flow on their own if they will. Even if the term "by the Grace of God" has been horribly misunderstood in the religions, I believe spiritual experiences are like "symptoms of grace" flowing through one's being if one has attained to that state of things.
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Aquila
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Re: Spiritual Experiences

Post by Aquila »

I've been trying to think how to reply to this topic since it was started and have found it very difficult. Sure I've had such strong synchronities happening that make you think if it is even possible, and other things happening which I don't recall anymore. Then there has been moments of feeling very strong connection with some people around me. Yet I think that in general the feeling of meaningfulness is the experience I find the most important spiritual experience in everyday life. This experience has gone through few different phases and it has changed in some crucial ways. I've also had experiences that felt like opposite to spiritual. Something very antispiritual which I experienced like there was a void inside of me. Those were also times of losing meaning in life. It was only the memory of meaning that made me think that maybe it's possible to get there again. After that the meaningfulness is no longer just something I passively experience without doing anything. Instead I nowadays find it something to work on every day. There has to be a conscious decision to look at things in a certain way and often it demands a humble look at oneself and a try to form an honest and loving connection with the otherness around myself. It's something that grows within by consciously doing what is right at any given moment. It could also be compared to creating a piece of art. You can wait for the inspiration forever or you can start doing and you'll find yourself inspired sooner or later. I know it's not that simple but trying to get there is already a good start. It's about bringing the spiritual into existence and not just waiting for it to appear in some fancy way.

Well, that sounds extremely lame, not even Paulo Coelho would accept this stuff in his books :) Still I am happy with what I have and know that it is the basis from which I climb the ladders upward.
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Soror O
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Re: Spiritual Experiences

Post by Soror O »

Aquila wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:41 am Well, that sounds extremely lame, not even Paulo Coelho would accept this stuff in his books :) Still I am happy with what I have and know that it is the basis from which I climb the ladders upward.
Well "lame" is just fine for me too. The lame helps one not to be indulged in mirages and phony eccentricity. (Real eccentricity is derived from pure dullness of freedom.) The koan - "before enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment chop wood and carry water." - is very telling. Spirituality is not some outward (fancy) thing. It's a life lived in Meaning, like you referred.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Nahumatarah
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Re: Spiritual Experiences

Post by Nahumatarah »

I think often people think of "spiritual experiences" as something very ecstatic, with grand visions and sudden insight. It can involve those of course, and I have had my share of them, but if I had to look back on my life the most spiritual moments I have been blessed with have been pretty ordinary and not very detached from everyday experiences.

The first one I can think of is probably when my grandmother passed. She had been very ill for a long time. It was a mixture of sadness and relief that led me towards considering that death is meaningful. Second one is when I was a teen and I suddenly started to become very empathetic towards other beings' suffering. It made me become a vegetarian and had a major positive impact on my own well being.

Third one is more gradual. I used to chase ups everywhere from religion to art to partying. When I decided that enough is enough and instead started to seek a more steady, healthy and balanced lifestyle the peaks also steadied and I started to have considerably less days when I was feeling low on energy. I had strong experiences that were very spiritual before, but after that I had some of the most intense ones of my life. Then I started to pray honestly, and the ecstatic experiences suddenly lost most of their appeal. I still dream a lot, have visions and ecstatic experiences, but now unlike before they don't seem to consume my energy and focus. I let them happen, not forcing, not trying to influence them. Sometimes they can be vitalizing, other times a bit consuming but they don't leave me feeling drained, unenergized or unfocused anymore.

I'm dull and boring now to a lot of people but my life and experience is the opposite.I still struggle in many ways, fail to express my experience to other people and so forth but that's okay. There's hardly a day that is not a spiritual experience now. There are many other moments I could think of that were profoundly meaningful but for this topic I don't think details matter so much.
"The time has come to turn your heart into a temple of fire."

- Jalāl ad-Dīn Mohammad Rūmī
Kenazis
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Re: Spiritual Experiences

Post by Kenazis »

Nahumatarah wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:16 am I think often people think of "spiritual experiences" as something very ecstatic, with grand visions and sudden insight. It can involve those of course, and I have had my share of them, but if I had to look back on my life the most spiritual moments I have been blessed with have been pretty ordinary and not very detached from everyday experiences.
Just tapping on this one (even your whole post was very thought provoking and good). I have always been heavily grounded on this so called earthly concrete level of existence. When my interested of occultism and magic was on its starting phase, I was a bit envy for those people who seemed to be always strongly astrally influenced etc. Now I would not even want it and see it almost more a curse than blessing (for I think than mental problems are as big (or even greater) possibility than spiritual life). This mixing of the ideas of spiritual and ecstatic is great error (imo) and that is why most of the new age related stuff seem to be wholly about how you can trigger these ecstatic feelings, be it through meditation, drugs and what ever. Spiritual experience can be ecstatic, but it can be also horrible. And ecstatic feelings can spiritual or just feelings not linked to spirituality.
"We live for the woods and the moon and the night"
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Nahumatarah
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Re: Spiritual Experiences

Post by Nahumatarah »

Thank you kindly frater Kenazis. I often feel that things I have to say in these topics are not really adding anything and I'm only stating the obvious, so I'm glad my ramblings are of some worth.
Kenazis wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:19 pmThis mixing of the ideas of spiritual and ecstatic is great error (imo) and that is why most of the new age related stuff seem to be wholly about how you can trigger these ecstatic feelings, be it through meditation, drugs and what ever. Spiritual experience can be ecstatic, but it can be also horrible. And ecstatic feelings can spiritual or just feelings not linked to spirituality.
This is a good summary and I totally agree. There's a huge danger in the fact that a lot of new age people don't seem to stress the danger in these thing almost at all. I guess I have been lucky not to ever have any such experiences that would have dipped my mental balance too much, although there have been times when I have had to put in some serious work to ground myself after. Listening to most people describe their similar experiences they almost always wish they would have never had them at all. Like fra Benemal said in our other discussion:
Benemal wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:57 am It's ironic, I was going to add that those experiences are what some people are looking for, in psychedelics, but they don't know what they're asking for.
I'm glad to have never gone too deep into these things. There seems to be some sort of a natural impulse in me that seeks to balance things out when I'm going too far into some direction. I'm also very grateful for that.
"The time has come to turn your heart into a temple of fire."

- Jalāl ad-Dīn Mohammad Rūmī
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Smaragd
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Re: Spiritual Experiences

Post by Smaragd »

Nahumatarah wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:38 pm
Kenazis wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:19 pmThis mixing of the ideas of spiritual and ecstatic is great error (imo) and that is why most of the new age related stuff seem to be wholly about how you can trigger these ecstatic feelings, be it through meditation, drugs and what ever. Spiritual experience can be ecstatic, but it can be also horrible. And ecstatic feelings can spiritual or just feelings not linked to spirituality.
This is a good summary and I totally agree. There's a huge danger in the fact that a lot of new age people don't seem to stress the danger in these thing almost at all. I guess I have been lucky not to ever have any such experiences that would have dipped my mental balance too much--
It might be also important to note the danger behind the more obvious dramatic one. Although the part of the danger where the aspirants mental health might dramatically deteriorate to a point of mental illness is true, grounding the drama seeking problem of the new age reveals how seeking ecstacy has the less obvious snare of thinking dramatic dynamism equals great spiritual power. This ties the mystic of the new age to a thought wagon of astralism that pulls the aspirant away from occultism, the latter of which would allow the practitioner to be more than mere reactive puppet. Here I refer ecstacy seeking as a category for seeking spiritual experiences rather than actual attainment.

I guess your expression of "dipping of mental balance" already includes this more subtle danger, as astralism is indeed unbalance within the principles. It just felt like it needed to be expressed more openly.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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