Making Sense of Projection

Astral and paranormal experiences, dreams and visions.
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Smaragd
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Making Sense of Projection

Post by Smaragd »

Projection seems to be a somewhat complex topic for it can be applied in many different ways that can be for example helpful in recognizing/discerning meaning of things i.e. aligining the inner and outer realities, it can be a form of escaping the unconscious which is trying to point the most meaningful otherness, and it can be, for example, obtrusion of individual realities where an individual other is not allowed their self present but is faced as a projection of something else, i.e. the world and its otherness is not seen as it is. In this last example I see two sides: the negative side is that we are holding on to some rigid belief of how things, people, something are and not allowing the otherness in its holistic/Mercurial function releave ourselve from these beliefs or prisons of the spirit. The positive side is that it allows the unconscious to communicate us for example that we are actually doing this thing and why we are doing it, allowing to question the beliefs.

I hope I didn’t narrow the topic too much down with these examples. To widen it up again, I’d like to ask if you have for example gone through or have been going through some processes of solve et coagula regarding projection - the impressing of meaning to the outer world phenomena and what sort of laws have you recognized there to bring clarity and beauty to the process?

I felt an image of a garden would be a fitting for a topic inspecting the inner and outer meanings aligning, and came to 'The Rosary at Ashridge' by Humphrey Repton.
theRosaryatAshridge.jpg
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"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Soror O
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Re: Making Sense of Projection

Post by Soror O »

Smaragd wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:42 pm i.e. the world and its otherness is not seen as it is.
To me, so called objects have two dimensions: First, they are things-in-themselves - existing separately and independently from my observation and intent. Secondly they are created and called forth by my observation and intent. If I see a flower and regard it a flower and a beautiful flower it really becomes a beautiful flower. These two dimensions (objectivism and constuctivism) exist simultaniously.

So projection is a tool of creation. But in order to create accurately, one must really know the platform to be true in-it-self. Like a painter needs to know the very quality and soul of the canvas. Painting on thing air, the artwork would vaporate. When the painting is done, one cannot really tell the difference between the painting and the canvas. They support each other seemlessly. This is not to say that without anyone projecting on us, we'd be dull as white canvases - lacking something. (And white canvases being boring is just another in-the-eye-of-the-beholder thing, as are Rothko's paintings) We are full of limitless potential... projection is the key to unlock it - in all of it's shades.

Was it Virginia Woolf who said something about women projecting men being "bigger" than they "really" are - as it were a bad thing. To me, this kind of projection can be an act of love. Just like a mother sees everything in her child as golden, a spouse ought to be able to have this look towards his/her loved one. This is not be mixed with blind (unconscious) idolisation.
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Smaragd
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Re: Making Sense of Projection

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Ave wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:59 pm Was it Virginia Woolf who said something about women projecting men being "bigger" than they "really" are - as it were a bad thing. To me, this kind of projection can be an act of love. Just like a mother sees everything in her child as golden, a spouse ought to be able to have this look towards his/her loved one. This is not be mixed with blind (unconscious) idolisation.
I guess what differentiates this recognition of beauty in a partner and in the (perhaps somewhat exaggerated) dynamism of a relationship from blind idolization is a sort of merging of the archetypes each in the relationship carries. An aspect of the higher self of the partner is seen and recognized and might start merging with the anima/animus of oneself. I guess this is behind the phenomena when romantic love (and actualized Will working in the nest of love) transforms our more or less unfulfilled relationship between the opposing poles (our carnal existence being a witness to such state of affairs).

The way projection to other human beings meets reality is like an outside perspective to an individual’s lower and higher self going through their dynamic process, but the ideal and the beauty recognized is also some aspect of the higher self of oneself. There is this plane of fantasy where things collide and if there is love there, for example working in a way that respects the other and its space and perhaps even to the extent that some parts start to merge with each others, then the plane of fantasy and reality can meet and reveal all that potential. If there is no love, the fantasy suffocates the reality – the projection becomes a demonic force obsessive of itself, of its precise form.

If the object projected on is for example a flower, the beauty projected on it is not as dynamicly on the same set of planes as with human relationships, at least for me. I mean, I used to see flowers almost solely as reminders of the horrible emptiness/meaninglessness of existence, in a bit similar way as Ave pointed in the ’Influence of the Seasons’ thread the spring light associating with rot and decadence. Similarly all these smaller parts of nature are more easily looked as an empty canvas the beauty of which must be found from within oneself, reaching to its guiding spirit through ones own soul, rather than solely from the objects outer layers. We can not communicate with a flower (its guiding spirit) like we can with another human beings, or the dynamism is a bit different because the human being carries this freedom between the planes of existence. We are not limited to the planes of flora nor fauna; the life in us works in a bit more complex interplanar way down here in the banishment from the garden, searching for truth and wisdom. But understanding how the beauty of flowers or birds is revealed can certainly help find perspective to finding beauty in fellow human beings – the nearly unlovable whims of nature.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Soror O
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Re: Making Sense of Projection

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Smaragd wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:48 pm I guess what differentiates this recognition of beauty in a partner and in the (perhaps somewhat exaggerated) dynamism of a relationship from blind idolization is a sort of merging of the archetypes each in the relationship carries. An aspect of the higher self of the partner is seen and recognized and might start merging with the anima/animus of oneself. I guess this is behind the phenomena when romantic love (and actualized Will working in the nest of love) transforms our more or less unfulfilled relationship between the opposing poles (our carnal existence being a witness to such state of affairs).
Yes, in skilfull projecting one's inner landscape ought to be well mapped. But the thing is that one cannot map it completely as we all know. And the unrecognized areas of the self are usually found in the act of projection.

I discussed bdsm and fetishism with a person some time ago. I argued that the personal other in fetish sessions is somewhat reduced into an instrument, objectified to the point that it's somewhat indifferent wheather s(he) is really that or the other person, as long as s(he) carries out the certain role of an fetishistic object. That these kind of role plays make a human disappear as a person (during the act). To me, as I'm not that familiar with hc-bdsm and fetishism, this image appeared somewhat "cold" and "un-romantic". But then this person argued that the aestetics and potential of such acts are in fact found in that de-personalization. The lovers are undressed from their persona (personae meaning mask), and even humanity. This kind of perspective into fetishism intrigued me a bit. We discussed about leather masks - how the act of wearing a mask can be really an unmasking experience.

These kind of plays can be damaging - or divine. It depends, as always. Maybe the surest way to ruin a fruitful adventure is to be oblivious and unconscious of one's motifs.
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Insanus
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Re: Making Sense of Projection

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I think if we don't project we just accept the earlier projections, the world is under a spell anyway. We can pick a lense, zoom in, add a little background music and take a snapshot, controlling our hallucinations with some degree of freedom, like an artist does. It's enchanting.

I think the general idea of "manifesting" (or "projecting to outer world") is obviously correct: holding certain images and feelings certainly increases the likelihood of them being noticed in the future in other contexts including outer experience, leading to the experience of synchronicities.

I believe that perception is illusion that can be manipulated with imagination and control of senses, but that many of it's standards are species-specific, some perhaps archetypical.
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Smaragd
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Re: Making Sense of Projection

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Ave wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:16 pm I discussed bdsm and fetishism with a person some time ago. I argued that the personal other in fetish sessions is somewhat reduced into an instrument, objectified to the point that it's somewhat indifferent wheather s(he) is really that or the other person, as long as s(he) carries out the certain role of an fetishistic object. That these kind of role plays make a human disappear as a person (during the act). To me, as I'm not that familiar with hc-bdsm and fetishism, this image appeared somewhat "cold" and "un-romantic". But then this person argued that the aestetics and potential of such acts are in fact found in that de-personalization. The lovers are undressed from their persona (personae meaning mask), and even humanity. This kind of perspective into fetishism intrigued me a bit. We discussed about leather masks - how the act of wearing a mask can be really an unmasking experience.
It is easy for me to agree with that notion of coldness and un-romanticism of depersonalizing fetishism, but it is indeed interesting notion how this unmasking the persona with masks might be seen even as some recognitions of some greater potential behind the persona. I can see fetishism leading to totally misleading directions but there might be some aspect to it that seems meaningful.

I’m not sure if I’m overly simplifying things but fetishism as objectification, as in projecting hollowness to clearly living soul carrying beings, seems like a power play of dubious motives. But when the hollowness manages to transcend to archetypal worlds in the immediately experienced meanings, we are in touch with some archetypal evaporations, our shadow, or with fruitful cornucopia of fantasies, the projection becomes a vessel for that potential.

I’m not sure if I even believe there to be fetishism that is full on objectifying in the most cold and hollow sense, because how would there even be libido present in that case? Afterall, what I’ve seen, many fetishists have very good sense of aesthetics which means the surface forms have meaning to them, i.e. the object is alive and pregnant, and carrying the projection. The libido is there because the depths are right there behind the worshipped surface, like death looming and breathing fire in to life. These depths might very well be something that points to the most problematic knots our psyche is partly formed by, and thus it might be much more important to deal with fetishes on the level of fantasies than for example trying to recreate the fantasy. But these things depend entirely on the situation we’re dealing with.

Besides sexual fantasies, I like the idea of spreading that creative fire in to friendships and other areas of life where the creativity and projection can open up vistas of some greater potential and revivified presences in all facets of life. It could be also seen a sublimation of sexuality when the most obvious ways of working with the fire teaches the laws of creation according to which the ”projection”, or recognized/anticipated divine, can be worked with and to the right degree through other people with their own complex souls and through the world at large. Spreading the fire like that seems to take some pressure from acting it out in the most carnal ways. Maturing of sexuality through projections, for example, by idealizations of romantic love and further in to understanding and acts of Love and creativity in a wider sense could be seen something similar Insanus noted with the following:
Insanus wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:56 pm I think the general idea of "manifesting" (or "projecting to outer world") is obviously correct: holding certain images and feelings certainly increases the likelihood of them being noticed in the future in other contexts--
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Soror O
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Re: Making Sense of Projection

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Smaragd wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:30 pm I’m not sure if I even believe there to be fetishism that is full on objectifying in the most cold and hollow sense, because how would there even be libido present in that case?


Hmm, I came to wonder what libido really is. Maybe it manifests itself differently in different "levels" or spheres (in the lower and in the higher triad). Objectifying auto-erotism (sic!) in the lower triad sphere would be a sing of blocked libido, but auto-erotism in the higher triad would be a manifestation of unleashed libido? (But ofcourse these triads are intertwined, collapsed into each other, so that it really takes a f*n warlock to track all kinds of subtle threads between them.)
Smaragd wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:30 pm Besides sexual fantasies, I like the idea of spreading that creative fire in to friendships and other areas of life where the creativity and projection can open up vistas of some greater potential and revivified presences in all facets of life. It could be also seen a sublimation of sexuality when the most obvious ways of working with the fire teaches the laws of creation according to which the ”projection”, or recognized/anticipated divine, can be worked with and to the right degree through other people with their own complex souls and through the world at large. Spreading the fire like that seems to take some pressure from acting it out in the most carnal ways. Maturing of sexuality through projections, for example, by idealizations of romantic love and further in to understanding and acts of Love and creativity in a wider sense could be seen something similar Insanus noted with the following:
This surely sounds wholesome and and beautiful. I see that one of my personal challenges is channelling the fire/libido more wisely. This links to the spring conversation in this thread viewtopic.php?f=69&p=33810#p33810 The spiring is loaded with fertile energy. When one acts out this energy in a one-sidedly carnal matter it births also unwelcomed distruction. But what distruction is needed, and what is not... it's a whole new question. I'm thinking of spring carnevals and masks now. Carneval signifying carne vale, farewells to flesh. The spring time anchors us to the flesh, and what to do with that flesh... that's the eternal question. Flesh no bad, flesh just monkey.
Insanus wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:56 pm controlling our hallucinations with some degree of freedom, like an artist does. It's enchanting.
This degree of freedom is the realm of the magician, I guess.
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Re: Making Sense of Projection

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To go to the problems of projection as clearly and shortly as possible I'll star by quoting Wikipedia:
Wikipedia wrote:Psychological projection is the process of misinterpreting what is "inside" as coming from "outside". It forms the basis of empathy by the projection of personal experiences to understand someone else's subjective world.
Here we are still amongst the positive qualities, but the very same mechanism turns to negative really quickly when empathy is not used properly. Without the Will to Understand where the other individual is coming from, the sphere of buddhi is deflated from reach, and the mechanism starts to project meanings to other peoples words that are either:
a) Generally hot topics at current times and thus easily pouring from the anima mundi to the images through which we project meaning in to sentences we hear.
b) Personally difficult topics that might be awaken by some words or sentences.
c) Both.
d) Would you like to add something here?

When these things happen, one side of the problem is that the other party might be completely wiped from the conversation. Their thoughts and intentions might be completely closed off and the one indulging in projection in the negative sense (reactively) is basicly making conversation by themselves - with their own shadow. This is the extreme case.
The other side of the problem is that there might actually be something within this projection that reaches the shadow of both of the conversants, and this need to be acknowledged. At best this leads to proactive processing of the projection and the (collective) shadow.

Now the crucial thing is for every participant in every conversation to recognize where goes the line of accurate projection. How might one go about finding such accuracy? How to remind oneself to seek it?

Wikipedia's definition continues in the following manner:
Wikipedia wrote:In its malignant forms, it is a defense mechanism in which the ego defends itself against disowned and highly negative parts of the self by denying their existence in themselves and attributing them to others, breeding misunderstanding and causing untold interpersonal damage.
EDIT: A correction to a small detail.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Re: Making Sense of Projection

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Smaragd wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:24 pm
Wikipedia wrote:Psychological projection is the process of misinterpreting what is "inside" as coming from "outside". It forms the basis of empathy by the projection of personal experiences to understand someone else's subjective world.


Here we are still amongst the positive qualities, but the very same mechanism turns to negative really quickly when empathy is not used properly.

While this is exceedingly important subject, it is also so deep and sublime an inner influence, that understanding this happening (especially in oneself) is almost completely out of reach of many if not most people. The process of becoming conscious of one's of projecting and dealing with it would need practically every virtue of the SoA system applied:

(1) Aspiration (spiritual Working)
Without aspiration, there is no need to question one's own projection.

(2) Loving-kindness
Without loving-kindness, there is no problem in projecting, because its harmful results do not matter.

(3) Truthfulness
Without truthfulness, why is projecting one's own universe upon others any kind of problem? Everything is relative.

(4) Patience
Since it will require both time and effort to really understand what is going on.

(5) Creativity
Because one needs to get a spark that there's something wrong, and yet another one to find the new way of placing the pieces of the mental puzzle.

(6) Self-discipline
Without self-discipline, the problem either will not be researched thoroughly, or nothing will be done to it, and the mechanism will just keep repeating.

(7) Courage
Because it is horrible to meet the problems inside, the ones which make the mental defenses and problematic glamours seemingly necessary in the first place.

(8) Self-reflection
Self-evident and most important. People who lack this can learn it by truthfulness though.

(9) Ability to know when there is need to invert a virtue

Because the projection of defense plays with our apparent virtues and values, which in the process are turned to something harmful.

(10) Ability to know what virtue to emphasise in a situation
As we see, the whole palette is needed.

Many people might find it strange that such a strong emphasis is put to this psychological theory in the first place. But when one starts to consider it in the light of occultism, they might notice that this exactly is the basic problem of all the esoteric doctrines: Gnosticism, esoteric Buddhism, tantric and yogic Hinduism, Neoplatonic philosophy and the idea of ASTRAL worlds all deal the very basic problem of human soul projecting its distorted mental scape onto things which are not actually like that. The very first words of Dhammapada once again come to mind. This idea of projection is the idea of Maya, the illusionary nature of the world. It is the negative mirror of the world matrix, created by ourselves. It is the fundamental reason for our prolonged suffering.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Making Sense of Projection

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Nefastos wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:56 pm
Smaragd wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:24 pm
Wikipedia wrote:Psychological projection is the process of misinterpreting what is "inside" as coming from "outside". It forms the basis of empathy by the projection of personal experiences to understand someone else's subjective world.


Here we are still amongst the positive qualities, but the very same mechanism turns to negative really quickly when empathy is not used properly.

While this is exceedingly important subject, it is also so deep and sublime an inner influence, that understanding this happening (especially in oneself) is almost completely out of reach of many if not most people. The process of becoming conscious of one's of projecting and dealing with it would need practically every virtue of the SoA system applied

...

--and the idea of ASTRAL worlds all deal the very basic problem of human soul projecting its distorted mental scape onto things which are not actually like that. The very first words of Dhammapada once again come to mind. This idea of projection is the idea of Maya, the illusionary nature of the world. It is the negative mirror of the world matrix, created by ourselves. It is the fundamental reason for our prolonged suffering.
It is a great endeavour for sure and it is a large bite trying to find initial tools to work the problem just in the context of conversations between people. The first problem that came to my mind last night going to sleep with this topic in mind, I was reminded of the mental images of a chess board I sometimes get. Within these images I am imagining some chess logistics and how to solve them. The problem often is that the square patterns start morphing so that the pieces and their relations to each other change from the rigid setting as the mind, which seeks vital meaning, wants to see relation of say Knight and Bishop in a certain way while looking at the same Bishop and the enemy King, the board might skip a row to find their relation more interesting. Such morphing of the mental images is really similar to how dream images morph according to the vital point the unconscious mind follows.

Now, I had a thought of how could I train myself to find sharpness in my mental images so that I could imagine a game of chess without "cheating". But the problem is that such sharpness would banish the unconscious from affecting these images, and I hold the openness to the unconscious more important than imagining a game of chess accurately. Similarly when you'd try to be super accurate in your projection in conversation, might you infact be ruling yourself out, the shadows you need to deal with (while the other extreme was ruling the other person out and having a "conversation" only with one's own shadow rather than the other individual). Yet I'm quite certain we could have both, the ability to focus and create accurate impressions in to the astral and the ability to let loose, to inspect the astral without manipulating it. This way the conversation could be with the other individual AND the shadows of both.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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