Clairvoyance & Clairaudience

Astral and paranormal experiences, dreams and visions.
Mera
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Re: Clairvoyance & Clairaudience

Postby Mera » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:53 am

Heith wrote:There is a difference between saying that everything/one is a teacher, or that we can learn from all experiences. I believe that the latter is true.

I understand this, that is fair enough, you are entitled to your feelings and views. I still feel we are each others teacher and students learning about the soul, creation, life, existence, each other we are even learning about our own power..etc etc... on this incarnation school of Earth. We do this by taking up 'roles', before we incarnate and choose certain life plans to learn what we choose to learn through experience, (even the parasites) . if we get stuck on certain things we get aligned to roles so we may continue on... I should say, we only recognize what we learn when we reflect back to any given situation. when we reflect back and start connecting dots..life transforms to something like a consciousness awakening to the emotions that love is all there is... love has no boundaries.

I know when we are actually experiencing certain situation it is very difficult to see it that way, it's only when we move away from the situation and start reflecting.

Eventually, we begin to see their light, all of them..the dance the sequences of the harmonic flow between us all. This is part of the equation creation made this garden with, in fact it is the core learning seed, this is so we can learn...we learn our greatest lessons the hard way sad to say through good and bad and the ones who love us take up these roles, because when a day comes and we choose to ask why? and choose to look at the 'devil' in the eye, we see his light and recognize his love and so forgiveness and healing vibrates instantly and higher.

Some people look at the devil in the eye and see a devil, but these people come back round one day again, only this time situation presented it's self to teach them to reflect and ponder further then a situation presents it's self to lead them to look at the devil in the eye again, if they reflected enough they recognize the presence of love instead of seeing a devil.
Tulihenki
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Re: Clairvoyance & Clairaudience

Postby Tulihenki » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:46 pm

Naturally we don't have to share the same opinion. I'll still try to clear my view.

I'm teaching my godson to play guitar. Teaching is based on my ability to play, conscious decision to share and willingness to be part of my godson's progress. Based on my experiences of astral entities they - at least those I have encountered - lack these things.

If teaching is conscious decision to elevate someone I think there must be some amount of individuality with; without it there is only energies to blindly follow and no real intention of individualized consciousness.

Like leafs are flying through the wind, so are some entities travelling down with energies and they cannot say that I'm willingfully here to teach you. They just act based on their energies like wild beasts, not by evil intensions neither good, but according to their nature like Heith said.

It would also be interesting to meditate upon the subject and object. When these encounterings are subject, where entities are manifestations of one's inner psychology and when they are parts of object nature of spiritual hierarchies. I guess that most demanding metaphysics says that all is essentially one, but I think that relative views according to our present skills are more important than absolute views of high metaphysics.

So much to say this in this topic, but words are escaping.
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Jiva
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Re: Clairvoyance & Clairaudience

Postby Jiva » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:10 pm

Some great posts in this thread, now my two cents :P...

I suppose this depends on how these words are defined. If you mean something like seeing visions and hearing voices then I actually think that people who have never experienced anything like this are the abnormal ones. My impression is that occasionally sensing anything with no basis in physical reality is more normal than commonly supposed. Where this stops being insightful and becomes a mental illness is a really difficult question and one that probably doesn't have anything close to a prescriptive answer. Perhaps it simply relates to the individual's ability to analyse the situation, although this could be considered fairly condescending.

Definitions of what constitutes a mental illness have changed and will continue to change over time. Although I consider Michel Foucault's thesis in Madness and Civilization that people suffering from mental illness were proffered with respect too absolute, there were definitely historically significant religious figures who would probably now be diagnosed with some form of mental illness who drew upon this as a source of inspiration. The main example already discussed on the forum is Shabbatai Zevi whom Gershom Scholem considered to have some sort of bi-polar depression.

Regarding things such as fortune telling, seances, tarot and similar practices, I think David Fideler makes a great point in Jesus Christ; Sun of God when he states something to the effect of every tarot card pick being correct, regardless of what it is, since they are all aspects within us anyway. This is why I’m not especially interested in affective magic: what happens, happens – and I will learn something from it, even if it’s not instantaneous and I forget about it for a decade.

Granted, for example, many mediums may just be in it to exploit people, but they provide a service (such as it is) to some people who know they're being cold-read but want closure of some sort in the externalisation of an inner dialogue. Something I find really odd related to this is the change in public perception regarding ouija boards, which has progressed in an almost opposite direction from family entertainment to something associated with the occult.
'Oh Krishna, restless and overpowering, this mind is overwhelmingly strong; I think we might as easily gain control over the wind as over this.'
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Re: Clairvoyance & Clairaudience

Postby Nefastos » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:39 pm

Great to see this much discussion. Thank you all!
Heith wrote:In my opinion, a problem is not that one "hears voices" or "sees things that other people can't". A problem comes only when interpreting these things wrongly, or starts to act out as a sort of a puppet.


I agree. When it comes to extraordinary experiences, we tend to take phenomenon as a suggestion - which is, philosophically & ethically, certainly wrong.

For example, people with psychological traumas often tend to repeat their experiences unto others, either directly or indirectly, if they are not consciously trying to understand what has happened. It's somewhat similar with (other) astral phenomena: Because the experience is so strong, that intensity of an experience - which may be just a result of its uncommon nature - becomes like a proof of its truthfulness. So people who have extraordinary experiences might take their messages as with the face value, not considering how messed up the astral world of extrasensory perceptions actually is. Seeing or hearing special things may be a subjective proof that the more occult world exists, but it's not a proof that a thing seen or heard is a hard fact.

Tulihenki wrote:I'm not sure about this, but if in some era this turns and everyone is really a teacher, then there has been tremendous change in astralworlds. But this is just speculation for me. Perhaps Nefastos can bring some light in this subject.


I think the question here is whether we choose to take the world (macrocosmos) itself as a teacher, or see it in some other aspect - like the Gnostic philosophy, which sees it more as a prison.

Even while the astral entities themselves are not consciously trying to teach us, we can always choose to see our experiences in this light: that they are always lessons. It's little easier for those who believe in karma, of course. If we believe there is mutual karma connecting ourselves to the world at whole, we can (try to) see how the problematic situations with spirits as well as with our fellow human beings are always "tests" for us, to help both ourselves & the others & the whole to advance in Truth as well as in Power, by using careful understanding & harmonizing of the forces.

I think it's not uncommon for one to have spirit guides. But even those guides which think they're acting benevolently may be misguided themselves, in addition to which there is chosen (or "demonically natural") conceivement. That's why we should always "test the spirits" instead of just taking their word without some amount of healthy scepticism.

Mera wrote:I know there are parasites in the Astral and to me most of them are 'living people' (who attack, believing they are acting out of love) who are trapped in some sort of mindset difficulty or drama due to their existence/life situations...


Yes, I agree with you here. People both incarnate (projecting energies & stepping in these emanations of theirs in sleep or in trance) & disincarnate (dead) can believe they are acting in a benevolent way, but actually they can work harm on their fellow men. Just like in our waking world. We are what we are, & necessarily act out from that standpoint. Because of that, every little error in our thinking becomes a way to project harm - sometimes very small, sometimes grave - to the world we always act in & upon.

I think it was a major setback for all the occultism how the early 20th century occultists coped (or failed to cope) with lower astral phenomena. Theosophists C.W. Leadbeater, anthroposophist Rudolf Steiner, & many people in those times & after that gave extreme emphasis on formal clairvoyance. From that ground grew today's New Age movement where, both in the Right Hand Path & the Left Hand Path, the astralism of often took which extremely little self criticism. And that, naturally, repels many rational people from all occultism, widening the chasm between our culture & the spiritual truths instead of building a bridge between these.

That there are people who have actual & often accurate clairvoyantic experiences they can understand & use in a constructive way is a great thing, but seems certainly to be more like an exception than rule.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Heith
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Re: Clairvoyance & Clairaudience

Postby Heith » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:33 pm

Nefastos wrote:
For example, people with psychological traumas often tend to repeat their experiences unto others, either directly or indirectly, if they are not consciously trying to understand what has happened. It's somewhat similar with (other) astral phenomena: Because the experience is so strong, that intensity of an experience - which may be just a result of its uncommon nature - becomes like a proof of its truthfulness. So people who have extraordinary experiences might take their messages as with the face value, not considering how messed up the astral world of extrasensory perceptions actually is. Seeing or hearing special things may be a subjective proof that the more occult world exists, but it's not a proof that a thing seen or heard is a hard fact.
Agreed. I have observed closely a person with a tremendous psychological trauma, and was amazed by their strength in not putting that trauma onwards into the world. They say that it's rather hard and I can certainly believe this. So it's easy for me to understand what you mean with a reference to this astral phenomena and the similarity therein.

The majority of people do take everything they experience as a hard proof, I suppose mainly because this happens to them, so it "must be true". In a way this is very understandable. Sometimes I've seen this take a dangerous path- a person who believed that certain deities are guiding their path, and that a set of symbols is somehow bigger than this person is. And then the astral visions begin massively, and they are unable to control this in any way. And when it starts to come in situations like during driving a car it's actually potentially lethal.

For some reason many who I discussed with seem to consider "the invisible world" somehow more meaningful than this world. Personally I see this as a mistake- from a magician's point of view, we are actually in a rather good spot here in Midgard when it comes to our work. And I do think that one should always firmly base their roots here and to take things with a certain patience and cool-headedness. The best tool is to be calm. It's so easy to go astray; one can believe good of all beings, but soon enough may face the problem that not all beings share the human idea of "good" or "bad", and that the workings of various entities may seem completely alien or autistic to us. This does not of course mean that we would not be able to learn from these experiences, but to me the definition of the word "teacher" does refer to a conscious choice to teach something. And I do not suggest that these beings would be "evil", simply that they are very different from us and therefore can not be judged by the human morals or working principles.

Nefastos wrote:I think it's not uncommon for one to have spirit guides. But even those guides which think they're acting benevolently may be misguided themselves, in addition to which there is chosen (or "demonically natural") conceivement. That's why we should always "test the spirits" instead of just taking their word without some amount of healthy scepticism.
Personally for me, my power or spirit guide, or whatever we want to call this (if this is a internal or external force is another topic and I'll leave it out of this) is a little tricky to work with- fickle, trickstery and somewhat impulsive or even a little "autistic"- as I can certainly be as well from time to time. So I do not take it for granted so much and try to analyse these experiences with care and if possible, from a distance. Actually, I don't even work with this continuously as I think it's important to have "mundane" periods, when one focuses completely on the physical world- builds their physical strength, meets people, so forth.

Sometimes my scepticism hinders as well, as I refuse to believe anything, or even something that blew my mind yesterday I begin to doubt within the matter of days. Yet some things I have accepted as experiences I can take to be true.

I do think that our view of these kind of workings with spirits is a little different, Nefastos, as I lean on the shamanic way of working, and for you another approach works better. But I suppose the outcome is somewhat similar.
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Re: Clairvoyance & Clairaudience

Postby Nefastos » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:45 am

Heith wrote:I do think that our view of these kind of workings with spirits is a little different, Nefastos, as I lean on the shamanic way of working, and for you another approach works better. But I suppose the outcome is somewhat similar.


I think so too. It's the age-old difference between two kinds of magic, the ancient techniques of shamanism (mostly used by our Black aspect) & the more abstract, philosophico-occult techniques of theurgy or goetic theurgy (mostly used by our White aspect). They require a little bit different mindset to master, although it's certainly possible to use both.

About the lower extrasensory phenomena (by lower I mean those experiences which present themselves as if they would come through one of our five senses, e.g. hearing an astral voice):

When starting the occult path, people usually hope to experience this kind of unusual stuff. And for the most, that too will happen. But as the time passes, the neophyte starts to see that the less he sees or hears the astral phenomena, the better the situation: for although it isn't the same as madness, astral sensory perception is connected to psychic turbulence & usually telling that something is wrong or amiss. It's a telling thing that most of the astral phenomena happens when there is the strongest negative/chaotic emotional energy. Cf. to poltergeist phenomena that is created by traumatized adolescents with suppressed sexual energy, or by the people who have died in psychic agony & hence magnetized the astral atmosphere with the outburst of lingering anguish. These are great things for movie horror kicks, but they are painful or sad to face in real life.

Of course, there are clairvoyants who are tuned so carefully that they can see or hear astral things that are not of painful nature, but more natural & enjoyable. It's uncommon, but certainly possible.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Mera
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Re: Clairvoyance & Clairaudience

Postby Mera » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:47 pm

Tulihenki, Heith, Jiva and Nefastos really interesting comments, I do have quite a bit to add to your comments, I don’t have time at the moment, I have full schedule the next couple of days and I hope to be able to expand my feelings properly later this week.
Thank you for such an interesting conversation. have a wonderful day.
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Re: Clairvoyance & Clairaudience

Postby Heith » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:43 pm

Nefastos wrote:
It's a telling thing that most of the astral phenomena happens when there is the strongest negative/chaotic emotional energy. Cf. to poltergeist phenomena that is created by traumatized adolescents with suppressed sexual energy, or by the people who have died in psychic agony & hence magnetized the astral atmosphere with the outburst of lingering anguish. These are great things for movie horror kicks, but they are painful or sad to face in real life.

Aye, agreed. I have witnessed a event like this take place after a mother of four died of a difficult illness. The house became a nest for very negative energies and in the end the children were too frightened to live there or even go in. Their fish died because no one had the courage to go upstairs and feed them. This house became, I suppose, a combination of the teenage energies, the grief of the mother's passing, and perhaps even the mother holding on in some ways. Or an entity that saw a chance for a party. It was a terrible time, and not everyone was able to make through it.

A shaman once told me that certain disease can sometimes "remain" after the person has died and create a more physical form. They can become harmful entities that distract and terrorise people. A prime example of this kind of disease would be cancer. I suppose this is a little similar to what you refer to in here.
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Re: Clairvoyance & Clairaudience

Postby Sebomai » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:26 pm

Heith wrote:A shaman once told me that certain disease can sometimes "remain" after the person has died and create a more physical form. They can become harmful entities that distract and terrorise people. A prime example of this kind of disease would be cancer. I suppose this is a little similar to what you refer to in here.
I would tend to agree with this, from my own experience. My father died of cancer and spent a great deal of the time of his illness at home, being cared for by me, on my own, in 2012. He did not actually die at home, but he was there for a long period of time during some of the worst of his illness. Also, I spent as much time around him as I could, both at home and when he was in various hospitals and rehab facilities and nursing homes. The energies spawned by that entire experience make me definitely believe it is possible a sickness like cancer can do that very thing. My life took a great many very negative and painful turns immediately following his passing and it was very much like I had developed a cancer of the soul, so to speak. I eventually made some very firm decisions and came to some very firm conclusions about my life and how I wanted to live it; primarily by getting rid of some influences, in particular one specific person, who fed me nothing but negativity, as well as taking some concrete steps to improve my life, such as beginning to create music and contacting truly good friends I'd been out of touch with for a long while. These decisive positive steps seemed to act as a kind of exorcism and drained that horrific and, frankly, dangerous energy of much of its power and I was able to move on in my life and continue to make improvements. But, while it lasted, it was not just painful, it was very, very frightening.
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Re: Clairvoyance & Clairaudience

Postby Mera » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:02 pm

Based from personal experience, the understanding I hold at this moment in time and perhaps this may change as I hope to learn new things each day if I can…

Taking a spiritual journey is taking a journey through the spiritual templates to discover ‘all there is’. Creation has placed blue print of ‘all that there is’ within our spiritual templates. When this journey is walked the seeker discovers many things, everything which is discovered is designed to teach the individual in one factor and the other is to free up the individual of pride and fear in order to discover what the seeker ‘seeks’. This is only part of what the journey teaches and teaching is one factor of the journey, off course there is a lot more factors and everything everyone commented here are factors which are highly valid and part of the many factors involved to the spiritual discovery.

Whilst the individual is looking inwards, the individual reaches a stage where he/she frees him or herself from the weight of dogmas, judgments etc this is so the individual can address factors about him/herself own self soul attributes in order to recognize that everything is a reflection on the individual on the journey of discovering the analogy of ‘all that there is’,…

Which is found not only inwards but also is outwards…

Part of the outwards and inwards discovery is a level of mirrors between the individual and the external. The thing is all that there is…is inside of us as well as it is outside of us inside everything else…. This mirror mindset stage is a level on the ladder up the tree of consciousness. We attract people living or otherwise to us who mirror our stage on different levels. We also attract lessons, scenarios, teachers to test us, including what appears as lower level mindsets…Perceiving the mirrors as a reflection seeing everyone as a teacher in life and on a spiritual level at this mirror stage really helps the individual to recognize and learn where the blockage/repressed point is on the spiritual/memory template. Furthermore to that is this…

At this stage the individual learns that all which he or she disapproves off or guards against (even parasites) are reflections attribute of the sort of behavior he or she unknowingly acts out. Which is the source diagnoses of repeated unhealthy behavior patterns which causes the individual to hold on to a self inner blockage. We let our selves be repressed and blocked because ‘the memory’ is too painful, or we do not wish to let go of something or purely too traumatic to even face.


Spiritual journey requires the individual to free up from this sort of ‘blockage’. For example, reasons of trauma or bad experiences, or arguments, jealousy etc.. Things like that repeat in patterns if we don’t recognize we individually had a part to play to what the blockage is. In these repeated patters we become victim and victimized to certain blockage that the individual refuses to face the fact that he or she is also the victimizer of him or herself. Believing instead that the blockage was imposed, a mistreated, an injustice… repeated patterns shows the individual is lead by self pride rather than self acknowledgment. This mirror process helps the individual discover the route of the blockage and the reasons of it etc.. we can’t move forward through the spiritual template if we have a blockage instead we go over the same patterns.

I found this spiritual journey requires the individual to ‘swipe, wipe out, strip out pride completely from his or her bearing or center. Pride can be anything from a cherished memory, to never wanting to hurt or repressed again to something the individual may hold as most sacred aspect to him or herself. One can never feel judged or cast judgment unto others if the individual understands that it is empowering to be snared at, laughed at, to be stripped naked before the eyes of judgments. Etc because this allows the individual to stop and never be afraid of anything ever again.

Stripping one’s self from pride is part of complete surrendering to the spiritual journey. At this stage the complete surrendering is like passing the initiation process unto the dark side of the individual. By that I don’t mean dogmatic stuff rather a learning and remembering creation. This is reached when an individual seeks answers to his or her questions to do with ‘why’. When we do not have pride we have no fear… it is pride which is the cause of our fears blockages etc etc.

In terms of pride, it's pride which stops us from facing things which we protect our selves from. out of fear of getting hurt or losing something we become to proud to be proven otherwise. we use to gate and protect our bearing using the analogy of dignity. I am not saying do not feel proud of achievements, what I am saying is if we feel to proud to allow our selves to reach a certain point in learning or understanding something on the Tree of life or knowledge.


another example is this..
Prideful out of fear is blockage.
Prideful out of achievements is a healthy pride but if achievements becomes to great to let go off than fear of loss transpires and the individual becomes to prideful as a result of fear.


I am so sorry I drifted off into another topic... Going back to the post topic...I personally have always been able to see, hear and travel with spirits, I am not afraid of such things, for me life like this is normal. My issue with it, I was afraid what people would think as things like this, is not regarded as 'normal' in our societies. HOwever, this journey requires the seeker to walk on a line of balanced madness in order to go through the process of evolving.


Just one last point from me... amm when I began perceiving everyone and everything as my teacher and student, it was like I triangulated my existence on a centre level and can feel a different frequency in everyone I meet, people treat me like they want to be teacher .etc..

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