Are Angels Intelligent Beings?

Astral and paranormal experiences, dreams and visions.
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Nefastos
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Are Angels Intelligent Beings?

Postby Nefastos » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:58 am

A student of occultism will sooner or later stumble upon angelic beings, whether they are Guardian Angels of individuals or traditions, or spirits one invokes in magic.

In our modern time the attributes of intelligence & self-consciousness are not granted easily, unlike in the older times when it was the other way around, and things weren't often considered without some kind of a reasoning agent behind them.

What do you think? Are these psychic and/or spiritual entities actually reasonable? Can they perceive themselves, are they able to make choices? Do they have some resemblance of men, or are they utterly alien? Are they only parts of individual's subconscious mind?

Or maybe you see angelic hierarchies basically in the same light as Santa's little helpers - stories fit only for children?

To answer my own question: I personally believe in many different paranomal entities & also believe some of those have intelligence comparable to mankind's, although different in style, action & values. But bound by the same spiritual laws, & living under the same pantheon of greater divinities.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Are Angels Intelligent Beings?

Postby Heith » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:51 pm

Hmm. This is a tough one.

The topic of angels I am not very familiar with, so I don't have a solid opinion on this. It seems that though many traditions do recognize some kind of angelic beings (or perhaps guardians) these are valued differently. Personally I don't believe in guardian angels, or spirits, or whatever we might name them as beings or entities with a same intelligence than what humans have. I do think that their way of reacting or thinking (that I do think exists in some ways) is different. I would not like to call it superior or lesser, just different. A bit like those stories of people who get trapped in elf courts, where no one else ever feels tired but keeps on dancing, dragging the poor humans with them. I think this kind of beings are incapable of grasping some things, though they may exceed in others. Slightly autistic from our point of view, perhaps. But it might also be that we appear as such to them as well.

I do think that a person can have their own guardian spirit, or angel, how one likes to call this. I think their appearance is not necessarily fixed, but depends on how one wants to see them appear. But I'm unsure. But these are a part of the person, in some way. Perhaps, like a power animal.

Then, there can be beings that are utterly outside oneself, and these I think are a part of a different system or hierarchy. More like a arch angel type I guess? But I don't know a whole lot about this, has never fascinated me much. Also the current angel healing craze that is rampant in Finland makes my hair stand up, heh.

I do find it possible that angels exist, as I have seen one that did look like how an angel would look like. Sadly it vanished before I could kill it with fire. :D
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Re: Are Angels Intelligent Beings?

Postby Nefastos » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:36 pm

Heith wrote:I do think that their way of reacting or thinking (that I do think exists in some ways) is different. I would not like to call it superior or lesser, just different. A bit like those stories of people who get trapped in elf courts, where no one else ever feels tired but keeps on dancing, dragging the poor humans with them. I think this kind of beings are incapable of grasping some things, though they may exceed in others. Slightly autistic from our point of view, perhaps. But it might also be that we appear as such to them as well.


This exactly is my own view, too.

That is also why I think the Lovecraftian way of seeing the non-human entities has made so great impression upon the (semi-underground) culture. Little by little people are learning to see possibilities for different kinds of evolution than our own, leading to completely different basic concepts of existence both culturally, intellectually and corporeally.

Heith wrote:I do think that a person can have their own guardian spirit, or angel, how one likes to call this. I think their appearance is not necessarily fixed, but depends on how one wants to see them appear. But I'm unsure. But these are a part of the person, in some way. Perhaps, like a power animal.


This issue of "fixed appearance" is a difficult for the modern people regarding no strictly physical beings. When some being's actual body resides in a level of existence wherein we are unable to get objective data, it's almost a philosophical question whether that being can ever have a fixed appearance -- in our eyes.

Personally I believe they have such a true shape, but because that "body" is not physical in our sense of the world, it can be grasped only by clairvoyant abilities. And it should be apparent that those are so prone to all kinds of personal disturbance that they should never be taken at face value. No one who's still interested in the psychic powers the astral plane grants can cross their mind over that gulf without distorting the sensations gained.

Heith wrote:Then, there can be beings that are utterly outside oneself, and these I think are a part of a different system or hierarchy. More like a arch angel type I guess? But I don't know a whole lot about this, has never fascinated me much. Also the current angel healing craze that is rampant in Finland makes my hair stand up, heh.


The former - e.g. in a form of interpreting angelology of Pseudo-Dionysius and the goetic conjurers - I find extremely fascinating. About the latter, well, today everything should be so easy... There is a multitude of people dabbling with the occult, but not a bigger handful than before of those who are ready to work hard to attain the needed intellectual, spiritual & energetical discipline & guidance.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Are Angels Intelligent Beings?

Postby Heith » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:50 pm

Nefastos wrote:
This issue of "fixed appearance" is a difficult for the modern people regarding no strictly physical beings. When some being's actual body resides in a level of existence wherein we are unable to get objective data, it's almost a philosophical question whether that being can ever have a fixed appearance -- in our eyes.

Personally I believe they have such a true shape, but because that "body" is not physical in our sense of the world, it can be grasped only by clairvoyant abilities. And it should be apparent that those are so prone to all kinds of personal disturbance that they should never be taken at face value. No one who's still interested in the psychic powers the astral plane grants can cross their mind over that gulf without distorting the sensations gained.
I don't really believe in the possibility of objective for humans anyway. Everything is, I think, subjective, as soon as it comes in touch with our way of experiencing, expressing etc. But perhaps this is me being autistic. :) I do, however, see what you mean by your comment, and I agree with this "true shape", just chose my words poorly. Supposedly humans have a true "shape" as well, but who can really know another? One is constantly wearing all sorts of masks and social conveniences. This is a different thing than what you meant, just came to mind.
Nefastos wrote:There is a multitude of people dabbling with the occult, but not a bigger handful than before of those who are ready to work hard to attain the needed intellectual, spiritual & energetical discipline & guidance.
Indeed. This is definitely something I should shape up with as well. I'm not studying nor working nearly as hard as I should. Learning and working seems to go in phases for me, and this is something I would wish to fix. To be in a constant flow, in the spirit of Jera rune. :)
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Re: Are Angels Intelligent Beings?

Postby Nefastos » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:41 am

Heith wrote:Supposedly humans have a true "shape" as well, but who can really know another? One is constantly wearing all sorts of masks and social conveniences. This is a different thing than what you meant, just came to mind.


It's a little different thing, yeah, but underlines my point, I think. For if we choose to see "true" shape anywhere, we will always stumble upon philosophical as well as psychological problems. And if we choose not to accept anything as "true", that too will bring about a great amount of problems. So, the best approach I can think of is to accept "true" forms as working hypotheses in different practical contexts, but leave it at that & be open for different schemas that may come up later.

For example, a doctor must have a good enough guess about human beings' "true" physical shape, and according to that he can help the sick. Yet an occultist knows such a physician actually sees only a tiny fragment of a true human being, and because that, our culture is still constantly ill, dying & suffering both physical & mental problems every day: we have not enough data yet to give the best possible a help a whole human being needs.

The great difference between the modern culture & the occult metaphysics (that is always also practical) is that the former has its mindset steadily put in physical reality, wherein the latter sees physical reality as a world of result & not the world of action.

"Who can really know another?" - I think the greater adept one becomes, the more truly s/he can know another being, human or other, and that a master initiate can really see into your soul as it is; always beautiful. I don't believe we're truly isolated islands, although in our present culture that indeed seems to be the case. Slowly, slowly, with great respect, one can become able to reach out for another soul & see its unique but still macrocosmically understandable geometrics.

Also, it's an interesting topic to contemplate how the angels (spirits) see us. Having no physical eyes & ears to mislead, they must see different human beings very differently indeed. Perchance we should think this when working our magic on or with them. How do they see the symbols & thoughts & emotions we're blazing forth in their subtler worlds?
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Are Angels Intelligent Beings?

Postby Heith » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:14 pm

Nefastos wrote:

Also, it's an interesting topic to contemplate how the angels (spirits) see us. Having no physical eyes & ears to mislead, they must see different human beings very differently indeed. Perchance we should think this when working our magic on or with them. How do they see the symbols & thoughts & emotions we're blazing forth in their subtler worlds?
Also, what kind of things attract them? Some people seem to experience / attract a lot more spirits (or angels, or what we want to call this now) than others. Although they could also be more sensitive and open to the idea but I do think that some people are more attractive to spirits.

This how they see us thing, I guess there is some kind of a bullshit meter that for example, animals often have as well. They see right through. Or well, dogs see that I love them and want to be best friends! But, I've met some people that animals clearly disliked.
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Re: Are Angels Intelligent Beings?

Postby Fomalhaut » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:41 pm

I have been thinking about this subject since its beginning here. I am still trying to formulate an answer for it. I will post it when it is ready :)
"I am not what happened to me, I am what I choose to become."
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Re: Are Angels Intelligent Beings?

Postby Fomalhaut » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:23 pm

I am still trying to formulate my answer for this topic but I am reading Zohar nowadays and I have found something interesting at The Mysterious Stranger part:
Said Rabbi Eleazar: "What is the occult meaning of the words, 'In the shadow of mine hand have I hid thee?'"

Rabbi Simeon replied: "When the secret doctrine and its hidden mysteries was delivered to Moses on Mount Sinai myriads of angels endeavored, through jealousy, to consume him with their fiery breath. Then the Holy One covered him with his hand, so that they did him no hurt. Also, with the word of which we have just described proceeding from human lips, it also is covered and protected from the wrath and envy of angels, until it becomes a new heaven or a new earth; for then only become they uncovered and their meaning revealed. This is furthermore shown by the words, 'Say unto Sion Ammi Atha' (thou art my people). They should rather be rendered, 'Immi Atha' (thou art with me), with me as an associate, just as my word was with me when I created the world, as it is written: 'By the word of the Lord the heavens were made.' And so it is with words containing mysteries of the secret doctrine uttered by us. We become creators, and happy- am! blessed are I hey who consecrate themselves to the study and teaching of this holy science and knowledge. If, however, you say that such a word may proceed from or be spoken by one who has no knowledge or understanding of sacred mysteries, observe that, if this should happen, then the word spoken by one who is ignorant of the secret doctrine is seized hold of by a demon called aishtahphucoth (froward lips), who casts it into the great abyss when it becomes a false heaven, and know as Tohu (vanity). When this heaven of falsehood is formed, forthwith it becomes united with another demon named esithzenonim (or lady of seductions),
who causeth the ruin and destruction of thousands and as long as this false heaven subsists and power and rule predominate.Therefore is it written: 'Woe unto you who draw iniquity (avon) with cords of vanity and sin (hatah), as with a cart rope.' What is Hatah? It is this seductress who, proceeding from this world of vanity, destroyeth the children of man. The cause of all this is the student who has not attained to the wisdom and science of an initiate or master. God preserve us from becoming such! See to it, therefore, that ye let not a single word escape your lips concerning divine mysteries without understanding or before consulting with a master that ye may not be originators of Hatah, and thus cause the destruction and ruin of many souls."
I have shared the whole passage(or I do not know what it is called). But according to what is written in Zohar, Angels are intelligent beings if they have a right to consume Moses with jealousy against the will of God.
"I am not what happened to me, I am what I choose to become."
— C.G. Jung
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Re: Are Angels Intelligent Beings?

Postby Wyrmfang » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:20 pm

Nefastos wrote:
The great difference between the modern culture & the occult metaphysics (that is always also practical) is that the former has its mindset steadily put in physical reality, wherein the latter sees physical reality as a world of result & not the world of action.
I don´t think this is a correct way to characterize the mentioned difference. Your description applies only to positivistic tradition (which of course has also a great impact on Western thinking) while for example Kant, who is the most characteristic modern thinker there is, stressed always exactly the priority of practical perspective over the theoretical one. The Kantian idea, that we create the reality (not in material sense though) is precisely a modern idea compared to earlier views where the world was taken as given, and it was not asked how our experience is actively formed.

Actually the most common criticism of occultism (and metaphysics in general) is that it is irrelevant to that which is real for us, namely, acting in a moral and political world together with others like us. It´s not hard to see why many people will simply shake their heads if it is asked whether angels are intelligent beings... Precisely for this reason I see it very important that occultism is conceived as practical; otherwise it becomes irrelevant speculation at best, and sheer madness at worst.
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Re: Are Angels Intelligent Beings?

Postby Nefastos » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:10 am

Right you are. By "modern culture" I meant the majority of people, the world view we'd bump the most if starting discussion with randomly chosen persons. It certainly seems that physical existence is the reality & incentive for the majority of people, and those practically interested in Kantian philosophy are perhaps as rare as occultists.

By this, I do not mean we should, or even could, feel contempt. Occultists are at least as delusional & crazy as profane people. But the problem in the profane (wholly secular) way of life is in that how it can't give right & uplifting answers to the most important questions, as do both esotericism and the Kantian imperative (to a certain degree).
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"

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