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Presence of Ancestors and Ancestral Worship

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:24 pm
by Lux
I thought to start a topic about ancestors, their remembrance, veneration and the actual worship of ancestors, and I made a few questions to get us started on the topic.

1. Have you ever felt the presence of your ancestors, either known or "unknown" (meaning with unknown the people of your own country, family or people in general that you have not known personally), either in normal life or in some extra-ordinary situation?
2. Do you have any interest towards the veneration or actual worship of your ancestors?
3. Do you think that this kind of "magic" could have a beneficial and a benevolent role in occult work?
4. Do you think that the veneration and remembrance of people that have passed by could act as a inspiring and protective way in your own personal life and occult work, maybe even acting in some numinous way in the course of subtle actions?
5. Is there any possible harm in awakening the spirit of ancestors, and what could this harmful or negative way be, if there is both a beneficient and malevolent (or malefic) way the ancestral influence can act?

In theoretical grounds and looking this issue from a traditional perspective the issue is very clear, and even in mundane life and society the veneration of ancestors and people of bygone days is a normality (candles in the graveyard, festivals for the dead etc.), although I think that modern people either tend to neglect the deepest impulses related to the issue and / or "don't believe" - meaning that in reality they have simply forgotten the basis of the thing itself - that this kind of "paranormal" or "superstitious" activity could have wholly practical and concrete positive effects upon their lives. Many people are so uprooted nowadays both spiritually and practically that they have forgotten this kind of things, I think.

Theory aside, do you have some personal or practical examples about the presence of your dead relatives etc., and if you do, in what kind of way this has manifested in your life? Personally I have felt the presence of the spirit my grandparents and they have manifested to me in dreams in a positive way, for example, but I have also felt the presence and the benevolent guiding, inspiring and a wholly practical effect of the "holy fathers and mothers" of one's country of bygone days in very numinous ways and in different situations of my life.

I personally think that "the spirits of the dead" and their guiding inspiration can be "drawn" to oneself if the motivation and the purpose of this kind of action is true, pure and holy itself, but the effect of this kind of work can also be very destructive and negative if one's motivations and purposes are in the wrong lines. I believe that "the curses of the dead" is a very real thing and an issue that should be taken very seriously if one engages in this kind of "psychic magic". The dead have no shrouds before their eyes, and they see directly to one's soul: if one tries to bend and draw their spirits and the forces of the dead for wrong purposes, the backslashing action upon one's self can be disastrous indeed; nature can be bent and twisted only so far before it strikes back with a "vengeance" (which is in reality only a purely neutral way of karmic balancing action), which is why one's motivations should always be right when honoring and / or calling the ancestors. The traditional myth of the fate of a necromancer is in itself a good thing to remember in this regard.

One apparently very mundane example is the effect I remember having when I was participating in a running competition a few years ago: In the middle of the competition I felt extremely exhausted, and I remember I was running in the middle of a open country-side road. Suddenly I started "to see" - I didn't purposefully think or imagine anything related to ancestors in this situation - people of bygone days working and doing things in the fields aside the road, and somehow I felt their spirits inspiring me to continue & and I also felt envigorated by this presence in some very concrete way. Since then I have felt this kind of inspiration and touch of the ancestral spirits in my life, and it manifests especially easily in the middle of extreme physical exhaustion; running or skiing in the forests is one fine example of the feeling of this numinous presence. This presence of ancestors can also be called upon and used in more subtle and magical ways, methinks, but the motivation should be right, as I mentioned above, or otherwise it can do harm both to oneself and possibly to others also; for example haunting, possession etc. could be regarded as negative manifestations.

The word is free!

Re: Presence of Ancestors and Ancestral Worship

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:44 pm
by Nefastos
Personally, familial ties mean almost nothing to me. I see them more as a hindrance to understand that everyone is my father, mother, sister, brother; and that every deceased soul is my ancestor. That some people should mean more to us than the others is another way for saying that some people should mean less to us than the others.

I'll take again these quotes I used for the Fourth Commandment in the Catechism of Lucifer:

”There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.”
– Mark 3:31-35

”Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.”
– Matthew 10:34-35

But it is good that there are many people in the brotherhood who do not feel this way, but can relate to their families and do work which is more focused in that way. The Right Hand Path operates through society and its cells, where the Left Hand Path is the lonely one. To join these two is of utmost importance, but one can still emphasise in many ways.

Re: Presence of Ancestors and Ancestral Worship

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:03 am
by Lux
Nefastos wrote:Personally, familial ties mean almost nothing to me. I see them more as a hindrance to understand that everyone is my father, mother, sister, brother; and that every deceased soul is my ancestor. That some people should mean more to us than the others is another way for saying that some people should mean less to us than the others.
In a universal context I can easily undersign this issue, but in a personal and "natural" context this kind of thinking would be a desaster for my whole life. The way I personally approach the issue of unity is through harmony and order in different spheres of manifestation, be it one's homeland and culture, relatives or ancestors.

Spiritually I may feel much more closer to a man or a woman who lives on the other side of the globe, but besides one's personal work, I believe one must start "The Great Work of Universal Construction" as close as possible. By working of behalf of one's own family, country / nation, relatives etc. and by honouring one's own ancestors first and foremost, one will usually more propably work in a much healthier way for the wellbeing of other peoples and nations also. In the course of my own life I have realised this in the most concrete way, and while doing good for one's own kith and kin, one can think about all the people of the world and their kith and kin at the same time with loving, generous and benevolent way.

The lonely wolves, hermits, wanderers, the prophets and seers, masters and teachers of the whole of humanity are on a different level from this not because "they'd be more important" in a real spiritual sense, but because of their spiritual development and calling (dharma), and because of their sphere of spiritual influence they have taken steps that require the leaving of all "hindrances" behind them. And still, one can be among these spiritually and inwardly while working among one's own people and in the place one has been born.

This whole issue, I believe, is far different in principle than the current "let's mix all people together in a global melting-pot and live happily (not) ever-after" type of thinking which is destructive to all real unity and well-being of everyone - a very real sign of the times and sometimes even a manifestation of hidden (or even open) misantrophic elitism. Of course we must at the same time acknowledge the facts about our world, and that the times have changed in such a way that we simply cannot return to purely homogenous cultures of the past. But, as long as there is no appraisal of violence, separatism and hatred towards "the other", there is absolutely nothing wrong in working for one's people first and foremost.

In relation to this issue I'd like to give the following quotes:

“The pure spirit in us may safely cultivate universal sympathies; for it can have no grudge against anything and will be tender also to our accidental natural selves and our home world; but the man must remain loyal to himself and his traditions, or he will be morally a eunuch and a secret hater of all mankind.”

- George Santayana, Persons and Places

“Religion and practical life are not different. To take to Sanyasa (renunciation) is not to abandon life. The real spirit is to make the country your family and work together instead of working only for your own. The step beyond is to serve humanity and the next step is to serve God.”

- Bal Gangadhar Tilak

Just for the record, the Santayana quote is not meant for you or anyone personally, fra Nefastos.

Re: Presence of Ancestors and Ancestral Worship

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:58 am
by Eradicatus
Much of my ancestry is unknown to me yet I am doing what I can to find out through what resources have become available, my family has not told me much about it but has told me of cultural descent and Origins of the bloodline I am a descendent of, unfortunate for one side of my family it will be impossible to find out due to not having communication with them and for the fact my mother was raised a orphan so I am only left to discover what I can on the Masculine side that has gave me some possible answers. Every Human being that exists and has passed through all of time can be a Brother and Sister, we can least expect also to share the same ancestry rather someone is related or not because while we may not have been born from the same mother and father, their ancestors have other ancestors and descendents that have intertwined with many.

Re: Presence of Ancestors and Ancestral Worship

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:04 pm
by Lux
Eradicatus wrote:Much of my ancestry is unknown to me yet I am doing what I can to find out through what resources have become available, my family has not told me much about it but has told me of cultural descent and Origins of the bloodline I am a descendent of, unfortunate for one side of my family it will be impossible to find out due to not having communication with them and for the fact my mother was raised a orphan so I am only left to discover what I can on the Masculine side that has gave me some possible answers. Every Human being that exists and has passed through all of time can be a Brother and Sister, we can least expect also to share the same ancestry rather someone is related or not because while we may not have been born from the same mother and father, their ancestors have other ancestors and descendents that have intertwined with many.
Good points you have here. What you are actually describing is an individual example of the social atomism and cultural-biological fragmentation so prevalent in modern mass societies that have erased all traditional frameworks that gave meaning and roots to men of old. What is important to acknowledge nowadays, I think, is that even biological ancestry is not the same as it was in the days of old, and one can probably find people far more closer to one's "kith and kin" in a spiritual sense from people that have no direct biological links to one another, yet share the same value systems and world-outlooks with one's self; of course it would be far better if these things - spiritual-cultural and biological bloodline kinship - could be also integrated with one another. It could and would prevent and correct a lot of the cultural-spiritual confusion and anarchy that we are witnessing in the world currently.

With the fear of reeking as "a sexist" to a modern mindset, I am inclined to think that one's paternal bloodline is more important in a spiritual sense than the maternal line, this stemming from the fact that archetypically the father represents the solar principle, the form-giving spiritual seed in a metaphysical and in an ontological sense, while the mother represents the lunar principle and provides the material womb and raw prime matter out of which the spiritual seed of the father emerges. These can of course support one another also, but if I'd have to choose which one to follow when considering the deepest roots of one's own spiritual ancestry, personally I'd try to trace the paternal line as far as I could.

Re: Presence of Ancestors and Ancestral Worship

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:39 pm
by obnoxion
Fra Lux had a valid preference as such, when he stressed the importance of paternal line. But I must say that this is not the only way to see it.

Ancestral energies in general, and the concept of presence in particular are both archetypically feminine domains. The ancestral energies especially I see best condensed in the meaning of the seed-syllable KRIM, which relates to the female presence of the cemetery – the ancestral ground – and to the lower centers of human’s psychophysical constitution. These energies very easily lead to stagnation, or even regression.

But all that aside, I consider myself of a matrilinear tradition, where the mother’s side is considered a more essential preference. I would see the father as a figure who would give the social initiations, presiding over the outer rites that make a child part of the tribe. Mother on the other hand gives the deep and secret initiations.

According to Brahmanandagiri:

Initiation from a woman is said to be auspicious, and an initiation from a mother is said to be eight times more valuable.

As is said in the Orient, Mother is the first guru. And as I see it, the guru is the spiritual parent, and that is where ones true clan can be found. So I would say that identification with the paternal side is identification with the worldly parent, but identification with the maternal side is identification with the spiritual parent.

But I share this view only to stress the fact that there is a choice of preference here. It could be an important part of individuation to seek out ones ancestry. But one can also see here the possibility of identification with the maternal side, for as an idea “the orphan” can be seen as a very spiritual archetype, with connections to both the self-generated (or one who has born without parents) or to the unknown the other side (the orphan as “The Other” parents are unknown).

If ancestral considerations are important for you, there can be very wide range of possibilities for growth in meditating upon these matters. But in the end I agree with what frater Nefastos said. These things have to be let go eventually.

Re: Presence of Ancestors and Ancestral Worship

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:58 pm
by Lux
I agree with you upon the fact of a choice of preference in this issue, and I actually think which is more important for an individual can be traced to the prevailing personal aspect (manifesting or emphasizing one the three gunas), and to the "ray of the soul" one is on. In whole it's not this simple of course, since there are so many threads in the web of one's wyrd that are inter-connected in more deeper levels, and I think both patrilinear and matrilinear successions are equally important to different aspects of one's soul and personality, and the parents who give a child his or her personal vessel thorugh which the ancestral energies manifest, can be seen as symbolical reresentatives of one's own karmic and psycho-genetic history, linking the blood relationships to the concept of metempsychosis: transmission of psychic history through the genetic line transmitted through one's blood.

The reason for me to stress the importance of the patrilinear and solar aspect, besides "blood mysticism", resides in my personal experiences and memories of past lives, from which I have gained knowledge solely from my father's side. What is noticiable in this is that "the mother" was a more impersonal and archetypical figure in the most important past life dream I have had, while the father in the dream was my personal father whose voice told me about the succession of my ancestral bloodline in very great detail.

Re: Presence of Ancestors and Ancestral Worship

Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:52 pm
by obnoxion
Lux wrote:I agree with you upon the fact of a choice of preference in this issue, and I actually think which is more important for an individual can be traced to the prevailing personal aspect (manifesting or emphasizing one the three gunas), and to the "ray of the soul" one is on. In whole it's not this simple of course, since there are so many threads in the web of one's wyrd that are inter-connected in more deeper levels, and I think both patrilinear and matrilinear successions are equally important to different aspects of one's soul and personality, and the parents who give a child his or her personal vessel thorugh which the ancestral energies manifest, can be seen as symbolical reresentatives of one's own karmic and psycho-genetic history, linking the blood relationships to the concept of metempsychosis: transmission of psychic history through the genetic line transmitted through one's blood.
I agree.

Re: Presence of Ancestors and Ancestral Worship

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:42 am
by MAF
The questions about my ancestry/bloodline have lingered in mind for many years. I"ve felt a sense of connection over the years through my dreams/visions, small fragments of clues/hints of what may in time answer my questions. So far, acquiring little information of past relatives and family themselves not knowing much at all about their ancestry line. One day through conducting research I will find out more about my family tree and heritage. I agree it can be an important part of individualization, maybe in some aspects it can arise to inspiration and spiritual growth. I believe also there is more need to be limitless and step far out of the "family tree" circle. Many great perspectives discussed so far :)