LHP and Draconian symbolism

Symbols and allegories.
obnoxion
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by obnoxion »

Cancer wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:15 pm
Le Guin’s description seems, on the one hand, to align with the idea of the dragon as ego. This is suggested by her connecting dragons with amoral, ambiguous force, that is as dangerous as it is beautiful. Much like the individual genius sought and harnessed for spiritual growth by LHP occultists, dragons are not in themselves good or evil, only terrible in the original sense. Sublime.
I've started studying the theory (and hopefully I will be able to evolve these studies to some form of humble practice) the so-called "Dance of Utter Darkness" or the Ankoku Butoh. I am only beginning to delve into the subject, but I'm already finding much beauty in how this dance deals with very difficult energies.

One of the orginators of Butoh was the Japanese goreographer Tatsumi Hijkata (1928 - 1986). I have recently read how Hijkata was inspired in creating this dance form by observing some situations that are quite disturbing. He grew up in a community where adults had to work in the field for much of the day, and they had the habit of tying very young children (like three year old) to poles while parents were laboring, apparently so that the childrean wouldn'wander off unsupervised. Hijkata observed how some of these children begun to treat their hand as separate entities from themselves. The other movement he observed was his father hitting his mother.

There is a Japanese concept of liminal gap between two states, called ma, and the above mentioned movements he saw as energy between two states in the context of underlaying unity. These are just some of the dynamics Butoh studies. There are much larger themes behind Butoh, like Japan's nuclear destruction in the 40's and the coming together of the West and East in Japanese culture in the 50's and the 60's.

I hope I got this introduction right. Remember, I am very new to this topic. But in context of the Dragon that is All, I am more interested on the first two movements of the smaller scale - the child becomen mentally disintegrated with his or her hand, and the moment of approaching fist. The paradigmatic model of this kind of movement would be the condemned criminal walking to the place of his or her execution.

I sort of see in these energies that travel across the intermediary abysses of the cohesion - and, paradaoxally, the disintegration - of the Dragon as the immense dark force. And thus Butoh (and similar workings) could perhaps be seen as a method to understanding the essence of the Dragon, by realizing it (instead of succumbing to the lesser darkness of its parts) by the act of love that seems like spearing the Dragon...
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Smaragd
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Smaragd »

obnoxion wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:16 am
Cancer wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:15 pm
Le Guin’s description seems, on the one hand, to align with the idea of the dragon as ego. This is suggested by her connecting dragons with amoral, ambiguous force, that is as dangerous as it is beautiful. Much like the individual genius sought and harnessed for spiritual growth by LHP occultists, dragons are not in themselves good or evil, only terrible in the original sense. Sublime.
I sort of see in these energies that travel across the intermediary abysses the cohesion - and, paradaoxally, the disintegration - of the Dragon as the immense dark force. And thus Butoh (and similar workings) could perhaps be seen as a method to understanding the essence of the Dragon, by realizing it (instead of succumbing to the lesser darkness of its parts) by the act of love that seems like spearing the Dragon...
Amazing! And what a synchronisity; I have been considering for some years now butoh to be the dance that my need to move my body creatively would fit most easily to, and for couple of months now I've been starting to think about it more and more seriously. If you have some recommendable sources for theory now or in the future, I'm all ears.
Insanus wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:58 pm
I recently started playing D&D again :geek: and knew my character had to have some kind of dragon-related history. I was thinking whether it should be a deal made with the evil chaos dragon or the benevolent human-friendly dragon god, but ended up just being a dragonslayer. The idea of chaos dragon being erotically murdered by reason resonates strongly.
Synchronisity no. 2: I'm to start my first D&D campaign soon. I've only played newer roleplaying games, and only once had the priviledge to join a traditional paper & pen style face-to-face game. I wonder if I can be a dragon.
obnoxion
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by obnoxion »

Smaragd wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:07 am
Amazing! And what a synchronisity; I have been considering for some years now butoh to be the dance that my need to move my body creatively would fit most easily to, and for couple of months now I've been starting to think about it more and more seriously. If you have some recommendable sources for theory now or in the future, I'm all ears.
As you have accesd to Finnish TV, check out Sam Yaffa's "Sound Tracker" series' episode from Japan at YLE Areena. That's where I first was mesmerized by Butoh.

I've been thinking if I could find from some elementary movements of Butoh a way to deal with my constant back pain and the psychological distress that goes with it. I've got four books on Butoh that I am slowly going through. All of them seem very good so far, but it is too late to say anything definitevabout them:

- Sondra Fraleigh: "Butoh - Metamorphic Dance and Global Alchemy"
- Bruce Baird: "Hijikata Tatsumi and Butoh - Dancing in the Pool of Gray Grits"
- Stephen Barber: "Film's Ghosts - Tatsumi Hijikata's Butoh and the Transmutation of 1960's Japan"
- Juju Alishina: "Butoh Dance Training"

The last one teaches the actual Butoh movements. It is very lucid with clear pictures and drawings that help visualize the positions of the body.

What I wrote in my previous post, I read from an article in an anthology book "Globalgothic" by (ed) Glennis Byron. I'm also expecting by mail a famous picture book on Butoh, Eiko Hosoe's "Kamatachi".

Butoh is used in many fims and music videos, and there is a list of some of them in the Butoh wiki page. A well known example would be that Japanese horror film "The Grudge".

P.S. I hope we're not too far off-topic, but I intented this digression into Butoh as an investigation of the concept of the Dragon.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Kavi »

Smaragd wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:07 am
Amazing! And what a synchronisity; I have been considering for some years now butoh to be the dance that my need to move my body creatively would fit most easily to, and for couple of months now I've been starting to think about it more and more seriously. If you have some recommendable sources for theory now or in the future, I'm all ears.
I have to add that I have been recently watching and reading about the philosophy of butoh as well.
The idea of focusing more to dance itself instead of technique is somehow liberating because in music what I have practiced is more about technique masked as music
than really about Music. Although this might be just one discourse within butoh as I know there is always someone who is more focused on technique.
But this goes from dragons to off-topic. Maybe we should have new topic for Dance.
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by obnoxion »

Kavi wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:23 am
But this goes from dragons to off-topic. Maybe we should have new topic for Dance
Yes, I think we should. But I still think Butoh can be used to explain the Dragon, so I don't think we should cut away what we have discussed here so far. We can begin fresh on our dance-topic, and work our way here from what is implicitly about the Dragon, to nwhat is explicitly about the Dragon. There needs to be room for detours when discussing such a huge topic, I think.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Kavi »

obnoxion wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:38 am
Kavi wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:23 am
But this goes from dragons to off-topic. Maybe we should have new topic for Dance
Yes, I think we should. But I still think Butoh can be used to explain the Dragon, so I don't think we should cut away what we have discussed here so far. We can begin fresh on our dance-topic, and work our way here from what is implicitly about the Dragon, to nwhat is explicitly about the Dragon. There needs to be room for detours when discussing such a huge topic, I think.
Definitely!
I associated (I don't know how and why) Butoh and Dragon with breathing and I thought of dragon breathing technique.
Maybe because I thought of Japanese martial arts (kendo, karate, judo, jiu-jitsu...) where two opponents usually are still in one stance waiting for their move and when the movement (throw, parry, counterattack) happens it's usually done in explosive-manner.
I haven't done yoga practices at all but I assume it is also about releasing tension and... prana? :)
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by obnoxion »

To move back the the Dragon from Butoh. In Butoh, which has shamanistic elements to it, the dancer shifts identities between different sexes, animals, ghosts, ogres, etc.

In fra Nefastos article that he mentioned above, the one on Dragon as a chaotic female aspect of Satan, he writes that Dragon is not so much a combosite beast, but rather the source of all the forms. Thus I see in Butoh a way to traverse the different potential forms within the chaotic whole of the Dragon.

Edit: typos
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Nefastos »

obnoxion wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:25 pm
To move back the the Dragon from Butoh. In Butoh, which has shamanistic elements to it, the dancer shifts identities between different sexes, animals, ghosts, ogres, etc.

In fra Nefastos article that he mentioned above, the ond on Dragon a chaotic female aspect of Satan, he writes that Dragon is not so much a combosite beast, but rather the source of all the forms. Thus I see in Butoh a way to traverse the different potential forms within the chaotic whole of the Dragon.


I know nothing about Butoh, and so the pictures which come to my mind from your discussion are most fascinating. I have this thought of possibility of a dance with true otherness, as an entity (non-being as a being), in total darkness. Perhaps because this is a depictation of a practice I have taken up recently, both literally and figuratively.

In a way, this comes to the aforementioned article's basic idea and name. ("Impaled god", in which I sought to bring together the figure or Christ and the dragon, as the victimization of the other as a symbol of the mystery play, and the Self becoming the Other, or vice versa.) I think that the basic problem of the human psyche is in its tendency to identify itself only with the one or the other: to take the role of the martyr/monster or the righteous warrior. Even though I abhor the usual Christian theology of vicarious sacrifice, I find the picture of Saint Longinus – the executioner of Christ – an intriguing one. It seems like a culmination of the Roman tragedy, the one which the Acts of Pilate paints a thought-provoking picture. As a side note, the same story of the Romans' powerlessness (& Fear) is also the red thread in my favourite novel Master and Margarita. Somehow this might be the "story of my life".
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Rúnatýr »

Just watched the movie Excalibur the second time the other day. The Dragon theme was very powerful in it. Highly recommended!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwcNNbxUE-w
Ice is very cold and immeasurably slippery; it glistens as clear as glass and most like to gems; it is a floor wrought by the frost, fair to look upon.
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