LHP and Draconian symbolism

Symbols and allegories.
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Rúnatýr
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LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Rúnatýr »

There seems to be an abundance of Draconian symbolism in the LHP currents. What are the ways the symbolism can be understood?

I think the Dragon as all lofty archetypes can been seen having both a beneficial and maleficent aspect (compare to the two faces of Satan, for example). What are the beneficent aspects and the maleficent aspects?
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Kavi »

I know very little about dragons and their association in LPH.
But I was thinking It can symbolize in RHP perspective ego which is forever hungry and greedy (like Smaug or in some poems by Molana Rumi) but I think you could think it as Ego as well, or like satanic version of kundalini?Something elevating in positive way. Although I think it might be dangerous attempt? At least what is known about kundalini syndrome.

And in Bible, Book of revelation has just awesome parts:
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
--And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7&8
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Nefastos »

My article about dragon as an aspect of Satan was originally published in Hylätty Kivi #5 (2010) & will soon be re-published in a book. By the name of the article, "The Impaled God", I referred to the idea that Satan can be seen as the feminine archetype of primordial chaos, which is "killed" by the demiurgic law; and this cosmic struggle (which is actually an act of love-making) is then echoed in many stories about the dragonslayers. St. Michael or St. George, Hercules, and so on, "kill" the dragon power only seemingly, and should actually be in most direct and intimately loving contact with it, their contrast opposite as a creative magical power.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Rúnatýr »

Kavi wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:35 pm
I know very little about dragons and their association in LPH.
Short version of Liber Azerate: Everything is a dragon!

Then there's the Swedish order Dragon Rouge etc.

http://www.dragonrouge.se
Kavi wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:35 pm
But I was thinking It can symbolize in RHP perspective ego which is forever hungry and greedy (like Smaug or in some poems by Molana Rumi) but I think you could think it as Ego as well, or like satanic version of kundalini?Something elevating in positive way. Although I think it might be dangerous attempt? At least what is known about kundalini syndrome.
If I recall right, TotBL / MLO have a theory of a "black kundalini" that when awakened, fills the aspirant with rage instead of love and compassion. In hell all are psychopaths?
Nefastos wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:29 pm
My article about dragon as an aspect of Satan was originally published in Hylätty Kivi #5 (2010) & will soon be re-published in a book. By the name of the article, "The Impaled God", I referred to the idea that Satan can be seen as the feminine archetype of primordial chaos, which is "killed" by the demiurgic law; and this cosmic struggle (which is actually an act of love-making) is then echoed in many stories about the dragonslayers.
Then it makes sense why the whole anti-cosmic enterprise is centered around the liberation of the black flame from the demiurgic law in the return to the primordial chaos of the "black gods", although it seems that the methods chosen by the anti-cosmic satanists - militant nihilism, violence, sheer chaos - are quite bad and unfruitful. One cannot simply press the "delete creation" button and hope to be liberated, I think.
Nefastos wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:29 pm
St. Michael or St. George, Hercules, and so on, "kill" the dragon power only seemingly, and should actually be in most direct and intimately loving contact with it, their contrast opposite as a creative magical power.
This is subtle. I think in this way of seeing things the Dragon can well represent aspects of wisdom and illumination.
Ice is very cold and immeasurably slippery; it glistens as clear as glass and most like to gems; it is a floor wrought by the frost, fair to look upon.
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Nefastos »

Boreas wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:46 pm
Short version of Liber Azerate: Everything is a dragon!

I'm not familiar with that liber, but this idea is easy to undersign. Dragon is similar symbol (/being) to the "Original Man" of the creation myths: it is the whole of which everything separable is only seemingly separated. It is the substantial and astral absolute. Purusha, Adam Qadmon: "and from the Divine Man emanated the forms, the sparks, the sacred animals, and the messengers of the sacred fathers within the holy four" (Book of Dzyan, 4:3). This primordial being, eternally "killed" by the lances of our minds & butchered to pieces by our words, is the Dragon of Chaos.

Boreas wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:46 pm
If I recall right, TotBL / MLO have a theory of a "black kundalini" that when awakened, fills the aspirant with rage instead of love and compassion.

That's just the regular kundalinî, in the usual cases where one is unable to cope with its extreme psychoenergetical stress.

Boreas wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:46 pm
One cannot simply press the "delete creation" button and hope to be liberated, I think.

Indeed. It's one of the sad malformed children of our Western linear idea of time & soul, that people think it is possible to just throw everything in the abyss & be done with it. In the bottom of every pit, there is another.

Boreas wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:46 pm
This is subtle. I think in this way of seeing things the Dragon can well represent aspects of wisdom and illumination.

Yeah, the Book of Dzyan also speaks of "the blazing Divine Dragon of Wisdom", the latter logos that emerges from the first, more absconded & spiritual one. This one is the Sun dragon; then, even later, there will be the "Earth" dragon too, the one who is the planetary god as the sum total of this smaller sphere, that is, "the Devil". The dragon flies all the way from the origin to the end.

The hyper-erotic unity of the dragon & the knight hero is the White aspect of the Martial dragon myth, thus "the white of red". The similar "red in white" would be to say that where there is a union, blood is spilled. (Black would be the disintegrating of the said dragon to its parts and its treasure gold in the former, and forming of a child in uterus in the latter... among other things.)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Rúnatýr »

Boreas wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:46 pm
If I recall right, TotBL / MLO have a theory of a "black kundalini" that when awakened, fills the aspirant with rage instead of love and compassion.
Nefastos wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:26 pm
That's just the regular kundalinî, in the usual cases where one is unable to cope with its extreme psychoenergetical stress.
Oh, you are not aware that the separate LHP universe demands that there is a sinister sinister sinister (!) aspect to every symbolism? :D
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by obnoxion »

Nefastos wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:29 pm
the idea that Satan can be seen as the feminine archetype of primordial chaos
Boreas wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:46 pm
Everything is a dragon!
Nefastos wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:26 pm
Boreas kirjoitti: ↑If I recall right, TotBL / MLO have a theory of a "black kundalini" that when awakened, fills the aspirant with rage instead of love and compassion.

That's just the regular kundalinî, in the usual cases where one is unable to cope with its extreme psychoenergetical stress.
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by obnoxion »

On the idea that everything is Dragon, does not the combined mythic figures of Michael the winged archangel and the St. George on his horse form a sort of fabulous beast, not unlike a dragon?

I am thinking of the Assyrian-styled male sphinxes, that have a long history in the areas where the myth of the female cosmic dragon has been prominent. In a way, Michael, George and his horse could be the outcome when the dragon is "disintegreted into its parts", couldn't it?
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Cancer »

"But the dragons," said Arren. "Do they not do great evil? Are they innocent?"
"The dragons! The dragons are avaricious, insatiable, treacherous; without pity, without remorse. But are they evil? Who am I to judge the acts of dragons?... They are wiser than men are. It is with them as with dreams, Arren. We men dream dreams, we work magic, we do good, we do evil. The dragons do not dream. They are dreams. They do not work magic: it is their substance, their being. They do not do; they are."


— Ursula K. Le Guin, The Farthest Shore

I was going to post this in the thread for quotes, but found a whole discussion on dragons instead — how nice!

Le Guin’s description seems, on the one hand, to align with the idea of the dragon as ego. This is suggested by her connecting dragons with amoral, ambiguous force, that is as dangerous as it is beautiful. Much like the individual genius sought and harnessed for spiritual growth by LHP occultists, dragons are not in themselves good or evil, only terrible in the original sense. Sublime.

On the other hand, Le Guin seems to cast dragons as an emblem for some very high form of attainment. Connecting them with ”being” instead of ”doing” (and of course claiming that they are wiser than human beings) seems to indicate as much. Le Guin was a Taoist; perhaps this quote should be interpreted in light of that.

If one accepts the claim that Tolkien’s mythology is the supreme expression for RHP occultism in the modern day, then it is very fitting indeed that all of his dragons are completely evil.

Does anyone else have interesting examples of dragons in the fantasy genre?
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Re: LHP and Draconian symbolism

Post by Insanus »

I recently started playing D&D again :geek: and knew my character had to have some kind of dragon-related history. I was thinking whether it should be a deal made with the evil chaos dragon or the benevolent human-friendly dragon god, but ended up just being a dragonslayer. The idea of chaos dragon being erotically murdered by reason resonates strongly.
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