Apocatastasis (& Origen)

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Nefastos
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Nefastos »

Gangleri wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:52 pmfor Origen every single word of the Bible is a direct word of God

Needless to say what I think about the infallibility of Church, but I can personally agree with Origen & Christians here. I see sacred, inspired texts as actually holy in a way that they operate on a level that surpasses ordinary human understanding. Of course, there still remain several deep problems:

(1) Most people who believe that the "word of God" exists in some book deny it existing elsewhere [in other religions' sacred texts].
(2) People tend to confuse what a sacred book actually says with how it is interpreted by their chosen religious authorities.
(3) It is usually thought that if "word of God" is found from these sacred texts, it does not exist in other but equally important forms within a human being, in nature, &c. Yet these different forms of sacredness should always be studied together, not separately.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Smaragd
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Smaragd »

Gangleri wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:52 pm From the introduction I gathered that for Origen every single word of the Bible is a direct word of God
From the point of view of the topic, I would reach to an interpretation that such a view is first of all positioning oneself to "breathe" in a true interpretation of a book made holy particularly by the choice to look it like that (ofcourse the historical weight of a book can help in this). Seeing a text as holy can have this effect of making every word light as a feather or turn it into gaseous, breathable form. Secondly, taking every single word as holy like that can be seen as a state from where apocatastasis starts to seem practical reality, meaning that every letter is actually in the magical process of ascension with its hidden meaning which takes it into a "flight" to heavens.
Gangleri wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:52 pmand the Church is / was practically infallible from the beginning.
It is bit of a reach, but the point of view towards the bible can be pulled over the church, or what ever is ones own congregation (let us remind ourselves that Origen's Church had not seen what we have seen done in the name of the Church, although it is beside the point) and then the whole world. All the folly being meaningful and only there, secretly inside, "infallible".

Recently there was some discussion in the forum about youthful attitude. I guess I'm more prone to execute it in this innocent childlike way rather than with the eager and sword-held-high power of the age of puberty (I remember rolling cigarettes from the pages of Christian hymn books was common practice in my puberty years) to see the pristine meaning of even the typical appalling statements. These are like two Martian modes where the sword is held in a bit differently. Perhaps the child has to keep it in the sheath as commanded by ones Mother.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Nefastos
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Nefastos »

Very beautiful thoughts about the mystical elements and their transmutation, brother.
Smaragd wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:31 amlet us remind ourselves that Origen's Church had not seen what we have seen done in the name of the Church, although it is beside the point

In a way it could be part of the point, too, since Origen wrote (in the third century) before the Church became the institution the word has meant after Constantinus (in the fourth century). Of course, we can claim that Church was heavily power-struggling from the beginning, and let it be far from me to deny this – as I have written in several books, I take that this started with the first disciples, as even the Gospels tell. Peter is the most obvious example, but we see also the mother of John & Andrew scheming, and all the disciples without exception. Still, how the corruption took its "infallible" steps towards the demiurgic throne, has been a long process, and Origen's ecclesia was still something very different to the Church as we know it. We must also realize that the words that are translated for us as simple things, are not often such in their original texts, ecclesia included – just like Gangleri mentioned.

Yet every book must bear its karma of outer readings as well. It is useless to claim that because there is some inner level, outer level's problems do not count. This becomes more and more important fact now when the world has lost its distances, and context-defining cultural separations will never again be possible as they were.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Tulihenki
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Tulihenki »

I can agree with a certain level that every word in Bible is a direct word from God (said by Origen). Some say that Origen was an Adept of that era and I guess it's easy to see why in that time in Christian context he phrased his words like that. I have not wanted to get on stuck to it. I feel/believe that Origen saw souls inner structure and knew Bible text inspirations came from the inner higher planes - high above to call, in Christian context, that words came from God.

About those words of original scriptures I was today thinking souls ascension to reach formless planes and to ground those into the words or languages we know. I used to be a more firm believer of words descending like a direct word from God, but reading different translations has made me thinking more importance of ascending as it is a more dynamic way. Because of this I have found also an importance of transalations even if compared to original words they maybe poorly translated or some how otherwise corrupted. I see them fragments if not anything else, but they still can serve as an inspiration or I can feel being as a part of long chain which reaches to time of old texts adepts and mystics. Sort of continuing Bible's esoteric realm.
Gangleri

Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Gangleri »

So hatred, murder, genocide, racism, pedantry, hubris, bigotry, sexism, oppression, paranoia and slave mentality are all the word of God? What a lousy and evil God must that be. Notwithstanding that most of the Old Testament is simply Judaic history.

I guess I'm too pagan and gnostic to accept and understand the fullness of Truth that has inspired every word of the Bible, and see only bouts of inspiration and beauty here and there.
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Nefastos
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Nefastos »

Gangleri wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:00 pm So hatred, murder, genocide, racism, pedantry, hubris, bigotry, sexism, oppression, paranoia and slave mentality are all the word of God? What a lousy and evil God must that be. Notwithstanding that most of the Old Testament is simply Judaic history.

I guess I'm too pagan and gnostic to accept and understand the fullness of Truth that has inspired every word of the Bible, and see only bouts of inspiration and beauty here and there.

Even pagans and Gnostics have to turn the keys of symbolistic interpretation.

But personally I agree that the sacred texts whose outer aspect is in dire opposition to the inner ones, and are in the use of profane also, are extremely dangerous. This is so important a fact that I repeat:
Nefastos wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:36 amYet every book must bear its karma of outer readings as well. It is useless to claim that because there is some inner level, outer level's problems do not count. This becomes more and more important fact now when the world has lost its distances, and context-defining cultural separations will never again be possible as they were.

This is a big part of my personal Satanism. To go against the outer form, but not against the inner, esoterically disclosed non-apparent meaning.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Smaragd
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Smaragd »

Nefastos wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:12 pm
But personally I agree that the sacred texts whose outer aspect is in dire opposition to the inner ones, and are in the use of profane also, are extremely dangerous. This is so important a fact that I repeat:
Nefastos wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:36 amYet every book must bear its karma of outer readings as well. It is useless to claim that because there is some inner level, outer level's problems do not count. This becomes more and more important fact now when the world has lost its distances, and context-defining cultural separations will never again be possible as they were.

This is a big part of my personal Satanism. To go against the outer form, but not against the inner, esoterically disclosed non-apparent meaning.
My personal emphasis is to draw focus for the non-apparent inner meaning of, say, Bible in order to see through the outer – more apparent and expressed – form. A sort of black aspect refocusing on that which is central and vital, and not giving too much attention to that which is not. This might actually be seen naive in the sense that discussing from such a distanced point of view offers the hand almost solely for those who have the same kind of temperament. Thus it is certainly crucial to note the importance of actually going through the karma of the outer interpretations, to serve the Goddess in all of her colours / voices. This is another aspect (partly the same actually) of Satanism: to actually be a devotee of the Goddess and take even the demonic sides of it under ones wings (guidance). Infact it seems to be almost a prerequisite to have, at some point, acknowledged the small karmic goblins of a text, or anything really, to be able to focus on the inner meanings (to work from the core of spirit) without it being self-serving or giving the reins to the goblins without noticing it oneself. Some of such goblins seem to reside largely on the area of psychology and particularly playing with the shadow, in a Jungian sense of the word. What I mean by playing is the idea of how in folk beliefs house goblins or house elfs (tontut) tend to misplace items in the house, i.e. pushing things to the area of shadow in a mischievous manner. There are atleast two sorts of missing items: those that we forget until we find them again, and those the value of which is emphasised in the moment of realizing its missing. Such goblins pointing the karma we have to work into clarified vision might indicate that some selfreflection with ones psyche must be worked to clear the waters between the spirit and matter, or perhaps the temptations in the desert, just pointed through a Dostoevsky quote in another topic, yet await the perfected answer (for example worldly political ideas, selfishness etc. blurring the clarity of the vision).

I quite like the idea of learning from goblins and other mischievous beings to reach through the process of apocatastasis. Such cozy ideas can help tremendously when the path is exceptionally difficult and agonizing.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Re: Apocatastasis (& Origen)

Post by Gangleri »

Wise words and that quote was asking to be repeated. Smaragd, you just bombarded my mind with such evil sorcery that I'll never be the same again. God knows Gangleri has had his fair share of all those things I mentioned also, and the evil trickery of the tribal Gods have seen the way people have dealt with their Wisdom in this earth. They say that all great minds think alike, so what is all this fuss about a certain clearly defined divinity holding the first place in Human matters? . I gather it must be Loki who wants to keep Death in the world with his blind accomplishe, and they are all applausing to him.

"Free Barabbas! Kill Balder!"
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