Satanist as an outsider

Convictions, morals, other societies and religions.
Angolmois

Satanist as an outsider

Post by Angolmois »

I think there are many satanists who consider themselves as an outsider in a religious context and that is not a surprise to anyone here.

I have given a lot of thought to this issue recently but it has also been present in my life since teenage when individuality and the search for my own identity emerged. I have seen and felt myself as an outsider both in society and in the dominant lutheran religion not because of some principal disagreement fancy but because this has basically been my deep experience. I have also experienced being an outsider in the company of other outsiders (black metal scene, for example).

I think this has to do with that extreme, even anarchic, individualism that characterizes many LHP oriented people. I think it has also much to do with (both real and false) pride - of course related to individualism - that encourages one to distinguish oneself from the masses either in a good or in a bad way.

There is of course a mythological basis for this experience of the satanist - namely the Fall of Lucifer in the exoteric and literal sense - as being the outcast.

Do you see yourself as an outsider in modern society and dominant culture? Do you identify with The Outsider? If there would emerge a satanist society - which I doubt very much - do you think you would still feel as an outsider in it?

Nowadays I feel as an outsider not so much because of dominant religion but because of secularism and its related collective ideologies. It is rather difficult to say would I still feel this way in a more traditional setting - maybe, maybe not.
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Nefastos
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Re: Satanist as an outsider

Post by Nefastos »

A good topic here, for sure. Critical self-reflection (without emotionalist needs, but purely truth-seeking) should be the building stone number one for every a Satanist, and every individualist.

Like I wrote some time ago in another thread, the problem of the "Azazelian martyr" has dawned to me in quite a new way after many years in intense brotherhood working. Our selfhood easily becomes the alluring Other, and we lose ourselves by trying to be "as self as possible". These become glamours to hide dark issues underneath.

Boreas wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:49 amDo you see yourself as an outsider in modern society and dominant culture?

Yes and no. Of course I am so weird in the eyes of the society, that there is a gap no matter hard I try. The difference is not made up but fundamental. But I don't think anyone is truly free from it: some people just claim that they have adapted, are the pillars of society, or at least bricks in the walls of its buildings. No; we are individuals all, and as individuals, there must remain a certain disharmony between oneself & the society.

Only an idiot underlines that necessary disharmony, because by that he will either become a villain or a parasite. Ethical stance always requires some compromises, even in the cases where some other things where compromises cannot be made will crucify the person. Such a crucifixion will then be a sad result rather than something we choose with middle fingers held high.

My opinions only, needless to say.

Boreas wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:49 amDo you identify with The Outsider? If there would emerge a satanist society - which I doubt very much - do you think you would still feel as an outsider in it?

I think I would be even more outsider in a "Satanist" society, for usually Satanism is interpreted in a very different way. And aren't we also in a Satanist society by many standards, like LaVeyan, or even *********? We are living in a world where solidity of one's petty personality and harshness of individual will to push others aside are perhaps the strongest factors in success.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Kavi
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Re: Satanist as an outsider

Post by Kavi »

I have felt myself as an outsider for most part of my life.
There seems to be friction between me and rest but I think this is just inevitable and also sometimes reasonable thing as Nefastos said earlier in his post.

Also I think one of trappings in Finnish society is that we tend to socialize and define us more with and through our friends than with family which is traditionally seen as collectivist entity. And if one can't find meaningful friendships in life people become isolated. As our friends are our family, there exists tension between individuals and individuals and in all this is somekind of collective too.
Of course there is a lot of tension between individual and family in family-oriented cultures as I stated before this exists on every level.
As a person I don't really know what to do with self I have been given or one self is becoming (yes I am trying to refer to Kierkegaard and Sickness unto Death) and thus I am also somehow even outcast from the self I am. I have this disharmony within myself.
I think such philosophies that try to bring both hands and paths together is not only healthy but also crucial in our fractured times.
As much as I adore the individuality, solitude and independence there is still a need to belonging to something. Azazelian martyr even needs this even though one feels they have become abandoned and rejected.
At least I can recognize these issues from myself.

I think also I haven't defeated this false pride and thus I can't truly be alone with myself and solitude becomes aloneness and emptiness.
There exists also some kind of false individualism in our societies which also could lead to similar setting that is depicted in Monty Python's Life of Brian: "Yes we are all individuals"
https://youtu.be/KHbzSif78qQ

EDIT: I forgot to mention also the kind of pride of being an individual and not belonging to "stupid crowds and masses". I think maybe some satanists might see SoA in this way although I am not sure.
Of course masses don't have same ability or mobility for self-reflection but it doesn't necessarily mean that "the rest of sheep" should be sacrificed on the altar of individual. And in contradiction I refer to above mentioned Monty Python and reframe it:"yes indeed we are all individuals and special and when there is two or more gathered together there is also Holy Spirit amongst us"
EDIT2:
Also the contradictory and rapid change in the video clip is somewhat important point if one thinks about Satan as a trickster.
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RaktaZoci
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Re: Satanist as an outsider

Post by RaktaZoci »

Quite an interesting topic!

I find the talk about satanic society fascinating or the lack thereof. I think modern society is actually quite satanic an sich. Pleasure and giving in to temptation is over emphasized (with programs like Temptation island, Big brother etc.) as well as only caring about oneself on the expense of others. As many societal philosophers have put it, we are taught to be private entrepreneurs, where the company is ourselves, this, myself, and we should do what is necessary to make ends meet, even though if that means screwing (excuse the language) everyone else. The Finnish saying "Minä itte, muut sitte" truly depicts this well.

So, in a sense I see it that there has happened a topsy turvy event where the occultists, i.e. us, are actually the preservers of the humane virtues, and the crowds are behaving like being on different levels of Dante's inferno.

I also realize there is a healthy, individual way to approach the aforementioned matter, but it seems that we are sliding more and more into the hedonistic version of it.

Do I feel like an outsider? Not really. I mean, I work and function in a society but don't really feel related to it. Of course, in a mundane sort of way, I do, since I pay taxes etc. But overall, I find it interesting to just merely observe it function, as a sort of an individual entity, which it (in an abstract sort of way) really is.
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Mars
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Re: Satanist as an outsider

Post by Mars »

For as long as I've lived I've felt like an outsider. And I'm not even a Satanist! In fact, one of my favourite literary works is Lovecraft's The Outsider.

I've often thought about the why this is so and what's the order of things, as it were. Have I've chosen to become an outsider or has it been imprinted in me at birth. Both are probably true. One source of this is undoubtedly my childhood, where I was abused emotionally for years. In one thread (it might've been on the Finnish forums, I don't remember) Nefastos talked about his own love-filled childhood and how that didn't protect him from psychological scarring, or something along those lines. My childhood was very different, and there are psychological scars to match! I've thought about starting a thread about all this childhood stuff but so far haven't really found the words for it.

Anyway, damage done in childhood does have severe consequences, and feeling like an eternal outsider in whatever circumstances is one of them in me. It's important not to become bitter, though, and as always try not to project these feelings to others, for all this can become like a self-fulfilling prophecy; if you see yourself as an outsider, it's all too easy to make an identity of this and fail to recognise brotherhood and connection when it's there. Also when I think about what is it that I'm an outsider of, more often than not the result is an illusion of some shared reality of others when there isn't such a thing. Or the other way around: the shared reality includes us all so no one is an outsider except in their heads.
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Cerastes
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Re: Satanist as an outsider

Post by Cerastes »

According to my experience with other people -as well as the experience with myself- the ones who claim to be outsiders are the ones who actually fit very well into society. The more I felt like an Alien, the less I wanted to be an outsider and at the time I had a lot of friends and was kind of popular amongst them, I claimed to be a super-individual outsider and hated society. It‘s one of these contrary psychological identification issus.
I think to identify as a Satanist, there needs to be a tendency for otherness but to see the whole, one can not stay on the outside and needs to at least have a connection to society as a whole. What this connection looks like may depend on the individual.
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Nefastos
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Re: Satanist as an outsider

Post by Nefastos »

Kavi wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:06 pmAlso I think one of trappings in Finnish society is that we tend to socialize and define us more with and through our friends than with family which is traditionally seen as collectivist entity. And if one can't find meaningful friendships in life people become isolated. As our friends are our family, there exists tension between individuals and individuals and in all this is somekind of collective too.

This, especially when mentioned in this forum of ours, once again brings to mind the tantric Kula:

Wikipedia wrote:The translation of the term Kula in English is considered difficult and has raised some problems for researchers. The basic meaning is "family", "group" or "self-contained unit". (...) Philosophically the term is said to represent a unifying connectedness, beneath the various objects, processes and living entities of this world, which may be identified with these goddesses as aspects of the supreme deity, in some regions the god Shiva, elsewhere a goddess. Another meaning sometimes given to the term kaula is that of a "group of people" engaged together in the practice of spiritual discipline. Kaula practices are based on tantra, closely related to the siddha tradition and shaktism. Kaula sects are noted for their extreme exponents who recommend the flouting of taboos and social mores as a means of liberation. Such practices were often later toned down to appeal to ordinary householders, as in Kaśmiri Śaivism. (...) The concepts of purity, sacrifice, freedom, the spiritual master (guru) and the heart are core concepts of the Kaula tradition.

Mars wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:31 pmFor as long as I've lived I've felt like an outsider. And I'm not even a Satanist! In fact, one of my favourite literary works is Lovecraft's The Outsider.

"...a stranger in this century and among those who are still men." Indeed, these were my solid and penetrating thoughts through my youth. After that, work has helped. By daily working for the others, praying for the others, even doing some irrational profane work for the others, I have come to see the unity in human beings. One thing that has helped in that process has been deep discussions with many different people, to see how similar and yet different are the traumas & insecurities each of us carry inside. Another has been the notice of how telepathy works, and how none of us are actually separated from the others. Ironical enough, the thoughts of separation are among the ones that are most easily taken from the collective mind of many similarly attuned individuals.

Mars wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:31 pmI've thought about starting a thread about all this childhood stuff but so far haven't really found the words for it.

That would be great, whenever you feel that the words come or could be invoked. Not only most of us (Left Hand Path oriented occultists) are scarred by our childhood traumas, so is almost every other human being. Some are just more conscious of their own scarrings than the others, and of course some emotional wounds go deeper into the core of being. Those of us who lack the means or courage to somehow go through these experiences unavoidably end up inflicting, in some weird way, very similar wounds into other people. In this way depth psychology really is very "Satanic", as obnoxion said that the Traditionalists believe, for exactly this is one of the greatest blessings that master Satan helps us with: the journey into our own underworld, to correct (by realization) things done in the past. If that Satanic journey is not made, one remains an outsider to himself.

Cerastes wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:43 pmI think to identify as a Satanist, there needs to be a tendency for otherness but to see the whole

This reminds me of Baphomet, one object of my idolatrous worship: for it is at the same time the figure depicting Satan, and the Whole.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Wyrmfang
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Re: Satanist as an outsider

Post by Wyrmfang »

Cerastes wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:43 pm According to my experience with other people -as well as the experience with myself- the ones who claim to be outsiders are the ones who actually fit very well into society. The more I felt like an Alien, the less I wanted to be an outsider and at the time I had a lot of friends and was kind of popular amongst them, I claimed to be a super-individual outsider and hated society.
I can very much relate to this. When I cultivated individualism and opposition, and Satanism as the expression of these in my younger age, I had a highly active social life and different groups where actually belonged quite tightly. Today when I don´t believe in the reality of exaggerated individualism and independence, I have basically no social life, cannot fully succumb to any group neither socially nor ideologically, and I´m having a hard time with my profession as my research falls between all established paradigm (mainly because of that, I have been unemployed for two years now). Perhaps this kind of process could be seen as the actualization of earlier ideals, which had once to be exaggerated in order to become actually realizable.

In the process I lost the primacy of Satanism, and today I rather talk just about esotericism - often it already invokes the provocative reactions which are more stressed when talking about Satanism. In most contexts Satanism feels too edgy for me; I don´t feel anymore I am that fundamentally not at home either in the cosmos or in the society.
Angolmois

Re: Satanist as an outsider

Post by Angolmois »

Nefastos wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:18 am In this way depth psychology really is very "Satanic", as obnoxion said that the Traditionalists believe, for exactly this is one of the greatest blessings that master Satan helps us with: the journey into our own underworld, to correct (by realization) things done in the past. If that Satanic journey is not made, one remains an outsider to himself.
From the critic of psychoanalysis in the traditionalist milieu I have understood that they do not mean this "journey into our own underworld" which is the traditional "descent into hell" but the subverted character of PA in that it does not recognize any sovereign principle in man - which could be termed the super-consciousness - and instead extinguishes the sovereign principle by referring one-sidedly into the sub-consciousness and into the lustprinzip and todesprinzip that are especially in Freud seen as real sources of the being of man. This is what could be termed esoterically as the dissolution of being "in the gloomy shades of Hades".
Angolmois

Re: Satanist as an outsider

Post by Angolmois »

Continuing the slight off-topic: So the traditionalist critique of psychoanalysis states that it is a subversion and inversion of the proper esoteric process, because after the descent there is no re-ascent, because in materialist terms there is simply nothing to ascend to. The equivalent in the neo-spiritualist milieu is a "pantheistic" dissolution of the individual in cosmic consciousness. What about the "spiritualized" theories of Jung then? Well, he is simply accused of mistaking the psychic with the spiritual, and alchemy isn't just a pre-modern symbol of the individuation process.

As one who respects Jung very much, this doesn't do justice to the whole of his corpus as much as the critic stands in itself.


EDIT: Spin-off is removed from here to form a new thread: Traditionalist Critic on Depth Psychology – JN
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