Idolatry

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Aperiemus
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Idolatry

Post by Aperiemus »

The concept of idolatry has been on my mind recently. The concept, as it has been used in the context of Abrahamic religions at least, has been a strong ideological weapon against those deemed unbelievers. By saying that someone worships graven images, is akin to saying that ”you may have seen wonders, even felt a state of bliss, but yours is not The Real Thing - mine is”. This conveniently allows one to categorize the beliefs of the others as a superstition or devil worship or whatnot.

In the Sermon on the Mount there is a famous passage that says one cannot serve both God and mammon (money, wealth, etc.) which appears to open up a possibility of ”worshipping” an idea as an attempt to fulfill one’s spiritual needs. When I ponder the passage it feels to me that if one builds one’s view of the world as something in which greed is seen as the prime mover of ”human nature”, one can fall into antipathy towards others. If everyone is greedy, then it is only common sense to be greedy oneself, or be trampled and perish. This attitude seems to me to hinder the work of buddhi in me, although I understand that it doesn't necessarily have to be so - I can for example imagine that the quest for unity is then to stand in opposition against this perceived baseline greed.

In regards to the path of ascension, have you encountered moments when you realize that you are worshipping an image, whether it's physical or mental or even an abstract one? I have tried to work on my vanity which takes it forms as daydreams of possible social successes or even failures in the future. These I consider to contribute into an unfruitful idea of self.
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Nefastos
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Re: Idolatry

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In a way I am nowadays an idolater, and proud of it. But this is because I interpret the teaching that you mentioned (Matthew 6:20-25) in the light of another teaching of Jesus: to give the emperor that which is his (Mark 12:17). Taken together I understand that he means that there are powers both in matter & in spirit that demand their just tribute, and each of these must be taken into consideration instead of made enemies with; yet only one is always one's true sovereign, and the others will serve that one. So it is not about "holy war" between these opposites, but simply choosing one or other as the supreme master. For the profane, supreme master is Mammon, the material plenitude. For an occultist, Mammon (i.e. the Emperor), the fullness of powers in substance, is servant. So I daily gladly prostrate myself before all kinds of graven (and astrally perceived) images, as long as they are not in opposition with my one true Master.

The last night I read from Tolkien (draft letter to Peter Hastings, September 1954, quoted in The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion p.389) his idea about different kinds of "trolls": "[T]hey return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these (...)" This is a part of folklore (and thus the later Tolkienian myth) where the fae reality, demonic entities & Judeo-Christian 1st commandment merge quite seamlessly into one with actual psychic events. (Images coming into life only by the focus of bent mind. Finnish readers may confer to my Beings of the Mask article.)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Smaragd
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Re: Idolatry

Post by Smaragd »

Nefastos wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:01 pm In a way I am nowadays an idolater, and proud of it. But this is because I interpret the teaching that you mentioned (Matthew 6:20-25) in the light of another teaching of Jesus: to give the emperor that which is his (Mark 12:17). Taken together I understand that he means that there are powers both in matter & in spirit that demand their just tribute, and each of these must be taken into consideration instead of made enemies with; yet only one is always one's true sovereign, and the others will serve that one. So it is not about "holy war" between these opposites, but simply choosing one or other as the supreme master. For the profane, supreme master is Mammon, the material plenitude. For an occultist, Mammon (i.e. the Emperor), the fullness of powers in substance, is servant. So I daily gladly prostrate myself before all kinds of graven (and astrally perceived) images, as long as they are not in opposition with my one true Master.


In such a way forming an occult groups structure in the manner the heavenly worlds are interpreted to be, can be seen a form of idolatry and the idol is at the same time a tool for the group and the group for the master. I’m too an idolater in this sense.

Sometimes when reciting the Celestial Hymns I’m forming images intuitively through which I can connect to the spirits in more alive manner. It turns to negative idolatry when I’m focusing on these images too much or stay in one image for too long as if the image itself was the celestial power. I think I would personally be challenged in this sense if I had actual graven images on my altar for these powers. I do have a crucifix there, but my mind doesn’t focus on it usually. I may look upon it half-consciously when a certain point of prayer calls for it, but this image sort of stays without interpretation and somewhere in the background as if it was a key note in a drone piece; in its constancy it is the base tune and has its place more in the unconscious. I assume great intricacies of idolatry could be found studying tantra?

Edit: Forgot to add the quote.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Aperiemus
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Re: Idolatry

Post by Aperiemus »

Smaragd wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:09 pm Sometimes when reciting the Celestial Hymns I’m forming images intuitively through which I can connect to the spirits in more alive manner. It turns to negative idolatry when I’m focusing on these images too much or stay in one image for too long as if the image itself was the celestial power.
I can relate to this experience, even though during recitations I rarely have any images at all. There is something wise in letting the thought forms flow through the consciousness uninhabited yet not clinging into any particular one when it comes to things like meditation. The images can have tremendous vivifying power, but if they are craven and sought after - that is if they become the sole reason why to practice f ex. recitation or meditation - they might become a mental drug of some sort.
Smaragd wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:09 pm I do have a crucifix there, but my mind doesn’t focus on it usually. I may look upon it half-consciously when a certain point of prayer calls for it, but this image sort of stays without interpretation and somewhere in the background as if it was a key note in a drone piece; in its constancy it is the base tune and has its place more in the unconscious.
The analogy of a drone as something in which the subsequent events relate to is an interesting one. If I may expand the idea, one could also imagine that the complex relationships which arise between the drone and the melody, could potentially lead to a higher understanding of them both. What seemed a strong dissonance to begin with, was actually just a harmonic relationship of a higher degree, or then the dissonance was there to be resolved. The image forming intuitively could be something totally opposed to what we expected, but through contemplation of the image after experiencing it, asking what it was and why it was there, can help us understand the drone itself.
Smaragd wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:09 pm In such a way forming an occult groups structure in the manner the heavenly worlds are interpreted to be, can be seen a form of idolatry and the idol is at the same time a tool for the group and the group for the master. I’m too an idolater in this sense.
I'm not sure if I understood correctly. Do you mean that through devoting your time and effort to an occult group, you are devoting your time and effort to the heavenly worlds? Like bowing before a statue, yet at the same time recognizing that it is there to signify something?
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Smaragd
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Re: Idolatry

Post by Smaragd »

Aperiemus wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:09 am There is something wise in letting the thought forms flow through the consciousness uninhabited yet not clinging into any particular one when it comes to things like meditation.
It is confusing to read such teachings from meditation instructions, because it is immensely hard to listen to written instructions and at the same time give the inner master the highest throne (despite it seems to be the only way that works, we just need to have an idea purified again and again of what the inner master is). What seems to be crucial in this, at least regarding prayer (meditation I’m not too familiar with) is that the idea that come have that lightning strike kind of touch to the spirit – the vivifiying meaning. The image as a mediator has thus done its instrumental part and can then evaporate to form other images or not.
Aperiemus wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:09 am I can relate to this experience, even though during recitations I rarely have any images at all.
My images usually connects to or are the words in their meaning, and thus the meaning of the words and an image are things that mix here. To get some connection to the prayers which consequentially moves the powers in me, I need to make living connections for example to the words spelling out the idea of self sacrifice and piercing myself with the sword. Understanding the words produces more or less actual images in my thoughts. Just wanted to make sure the images I’m speaking of are not misinterpreted. I understand others may not experience things in this way similarly as there are so many ways to learn and think in the first place.

Aperiemus wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:09 am
Smaragd wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:09 pm I do have a crucifix there, but my mind doesn’t focus on it usually. I may look upon it half-consciously when a certain point of prayer calls for it, but this image sort of stays without interpretation and somewhere in the background as if it was a key note in a drone piece; in its constancy it is the base tune and has its place more in the unconscious.
The analogy of a drone as something in which the subsequent events relate to is an interesting one. If I may expand the idea, one could also imagine that the complex relationships which arise between the drone and the melody, could potentially lead to a higher understanding of them both. What seemed a strong dissonance to begin with, was actually just a harmonic relationship of a higher degree, or then the dissonance was there to be resolved. The image forming intuitively could be something totally opposed to what we expected, but through contemplation of the image after experiencing it, asking what it was and why it was there, can help us understand the drone itself.
Indeed! I wholly agree your expanded ideas.
Aperiemus wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:09 am
Smaragd wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:09 pm In such a way forming an occult groups structure in the manner the heavenly worlds are interpreted to be, can be seen a form of idolatry and the idol is at the same time a tool for the group and the group for the master. I’m too an idolater in this sense.
I'm not sure if I understood correctly. Do you mean that through devoting your time and effort to an occult group, you are devoting your time and effort to the heavenly worlds? Like bowing before a statue, yet at the same time recognizing that it is there to signify something?
Apologies for this part of my hasty post, which I’ve seem to have written down with awful unclarity. I think what you understood is a part of it, but I meant to say that the occult group forms itself according to their interpretation of the celestial hierarchies, and thus become as a group an idol image of those hierarchies. Taking part of the group in the structure is a kind of idolatry while taking part of the group as an individual with individual needs and settings ideally breaths fresh air – life – in to the outer form.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
obnoxion
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Re: Idolatry

Post by obnoxion »

Aperiemus wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:18 pm The concept of idolatry has been on my mind recently. The concept, as it has been used in the context of Abrahamic religions at least, has been a strong ideological weapon against those deemed unbelievers. By saying that someone worships graven images, is akin to saying that ”you may have seen wonders, even felt a state of bliss, but yours is not The Real Thing - mine is”. This conveniently allows one to categorize the beliefs of the others as a superstition or devil worship or whatnot.
I think much of Abrahamic monotheism is spiritual idolatry. There is s legend which is especially familiar in the Islamic world. Terah, the father of Abraham (whose name was still Abram, as only later in life his god added the letter heh to his name), was a manufacturer of graven idols. When Abram adopted monotheism, he once played an educational trick to his father. He smashed all his Idols except the largest one, and then placed the mallet beside the remaining Idol. When his father was upset, and asked what happened, Abram told that the largest one smashed the other idols.

Terah did not believe this, and why would he. We know that "pagan" idolatry was and is not that crude. Instead, the scenario of one Idol breaking the others does paint quite accurate picture of exoteric monotheism. I mean, just because it is forbidden to make a picture of a god, doesn't mean it will not be worshipped and believed in like a basic Idol - a massive, invisible Idol, but an idol none the less.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Idolatry

Post by Angolmois »

obnoxion wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:53 amWe know that "pagan" idolatry was and is not that crude.
As I have studied the modern (neo-)Pagan scene and its various manifestations, there seems to be as crude idolatry as in exoteric monotheism also; perhaps not in the same extent as in Abrahamic monotheisms, but idolatry is also very present in there as well and it seems that many interpretations of the Norse pantheon, for example, is not that different from the exoteric monotheisms. Usually a huge idol is (re-)constructed from the figures of Thor or Odin for example and they are interpreted in a very exoteric manner or in a (post-)Nietzshean way as symbols of a Superman after which to strive for, completely lacking any esoteric dimension. The non-dualism of the ancient pagans is many times thrown out of the window and a dualistic worldview more based upon Christianity than Paganism is re-constructed. (I have made my own mistakes in this way also.)

"Symbolic Satanism" I see as a form of atheistic idolatry. The "problem of God" hasn't gone anywhere in Laveyan Satanism; only a materialistic, atheistic and crudely egoistic idol of Satan is constructed. Laveyans are worshippers of a atheistically re-interpreted Jehovah.
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