Ethical Principles

Convictions, morals, other societies and religions.
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Nefastos
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Nefastos »

Speaking of the Triple or Threefold Key, I'd like to point to the Azazelin Avain which extends the ethical schema to seven desirable attributes. Now these are not a part of the seventh principle of the Star of Azazel per se, but I consider them an important extension to at least ponder upon, even if rejected:
Azazelin Avain, p.174 (as a part of tabulation considering the correspondences in the Hieroglyphic Key) wrote: Principle / Virtue
Âtma / Effort in upward advancement
Buddhi / Lovingness
Manas / Truthfulness
Prâna / Patience
Jiva / Creativity
Linga Sharîra / Self-discipline
Kâma rûpa / Courage
Kâma manas / Self-reflection

Kenazis wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:23 pmps. as Ave, I also have always related myself with the underdogs and outsiders.

I used to do that more, but the work in the brotherhood has taught me a lot in this, too. A typical Azazelian martyr's actually quite a humorous black sheep attitude gets easier to notice in oneself when there's a hundred people acting more or less in the same way ("Alas, I am an outcast! Woe to me, the Special One!"), and being for a change also the object and not only the subject of the subconscious patricidal needs has made me think these things twice before taking the side of a beggar, ruffian or alcoholic just because he's an outlaw. I think this white vs. black sheep idealism really goes 1:1, both are equally wrong, when sides are taken intuitively.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Smaragd
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Smaragd »

Nefastos wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:09 pm
Kenazis wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:23 pmps. as Ave, I also have always related myself with the underdogs and outsiders.

I used to do that more, but the work in the brotherhood has taught me a lot in this, too. A typical Azazelian martyr's actually quite a humorous black sheep attitude gets easier to notice in oneself when there's a hundred people acting more or less in the same way ("Alas, I am an outcast! Woe to me, the Special One!"), and being for a change also the object and not only the subject of the subconscious patricidal needs has made me think these things twice before taking the side of a beggar, ruffian or alcoholic just because he's an outlaw. I think this white vs. black sheep idealism really goes 1:1, both are equally wrong, when sides are taken intuitively.
This! And it's also ridiculous how endless this pit gets even when I try to balance things out by not choosing sides. Balancing is so easily seen as choosing the other side, even when painstakingly trying to underline it is not. Thus I am again the scapegoat castout defending the opposite of underdog, which is the underdog in a sphere full of underdogs. I'm not referring to SoA circles by this, but general experiences in the underground social circles. It's easy to be really out of place in such spheres where people try to identify with the opposite of this or that norm and you yourself feel like building identity is not the reason I'm there at all. The Azazelian martyr can actually do alot of harm if he doesn't see those places and the indentity building some sort of recovery halls and leave them be and accept the desert is where he must return.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Peregrina
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Peregrina »

Smaragd wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:41 pm
Nefastos wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:09 pm
Kenazis wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:23 pmps. as Ave, I also have always related myself with the underdogs and outsiders.

I used to do that more, but the work in the brotherhood has taught me a lot in this, too. A typical Azazelian martyr's actually quite a humorous black sheep attitude gets easier to notice in oneself when there's a hundred people acting more or less in the same way ("Alas, I am an outcast! Woe to me, the Special One!"), and being for a change also the object and not only the subject of the subconscious patricidal needs has made me think these things twice before taking the side of a beggar, ruffian or alcoholic just because he's an outlaw. I think this white vs. black sheep idealism really goes 1:1, both are equally wrong, when sides are taken intuitively.
This! And it's also ridiculous how endless this pit gets even when I try to balance things out by not choosing sides. Balancing is so easily seen as choosing the other side, even when painstakingly trying to underline it is not. Thus I am again the scapegoat castout defending the opposite of underdog, which is the underdog in a sphere full of underdogs. I'm not referring to SoA circles by this, but general experiences in the underground social circles. It's easy to be really out of place in such spheres where people try to identify with the opposite of this or that norm and you yourself feel like building identity is not the reason I'm there at all. The Azazelian martyr can actually do alot of harm if he doesn't see those places and the indentity building some sort of recovery halls and leave them be and accept the desert is where he must return.
Yes, this attitude has caused a lot of trouble in my life too. It´s easy to hide behind it and not change your ways, when you can tell yourself that actually you can benefit others by performing poorly or even being a total prick.
Like it would be mandatory that there´s an underdog in every group and you´re somehow destined to take that role. I partially blame suicidal thoughts for this, because I have "reasoned" that if I´m not grateful about what life has to offer then I don´t deserve anything good and might as well be the scapegoat, especially with my superpower of dissosiation. Also I used to think, that if I take the faults of others with me to the grave (like that was possible), I don´t end up in hell world after suicide.
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Soror O
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Soror O »

Your talk about the azazelian martyr got me thinking.

There's a hobo that hangs out near the grocery store I go to. He has very powerful eyes, and looks right into your eyes, piercingly. I have played out this underdog drama with him during my shop trips. When he looks at me I feel a strong sense that I owe him something. That I should give him what is "mine" (my money, my posessions even my body). And in his presence I feel deeply ashamed of my middle classy outlooks, like I should give it up just to convince him that "I'm really just (like) you". I've had a fantasy that he'd devour me in some way. No doubt I've projected a heavy bunch of my inner drama to him. (In my childhood I was first "the golden child" and the the black sheep of the family and I realized that these polarities play out in my inner world constantly.)

Why did Jeesus encouraged people to give away all their posessions? I have thought a lot of ethics of money and consuming. I know that some of my "altruism" stems out of guilt of being a priviledged westerner. And from a masocistic place of "not being worthy" of the priviledge.

It's not pity that I feel for the hobo nor it's genuine compassion, it's almost a knowing that he owns me in some mysterious way. Maybe the things I project into him, own me. I don't know. My ethics is messy.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
Kenazis
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Kenazis »

What I meant with underdogs and outcasts, was people who are not believed, pushed down, not understood etc. Not just the people who are different than majority, even these go under the same "category".
"We live for the woods and the moon and the night"
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Cerastes
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Cerastes »

Smaragd wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:41 pm
Nefastos wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:09 pm
Kenazis wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:23 pmps. as Ave, I also have always related myself with the underdogs and outsiders.

I used to do that more, but the work in the brotherhood has taught me a lot in this, too. A typical Azazelian martyr's actually quite a humorous black sheep attitude gets easier to notice in oneself when there's a hundred people acting more or less in the same way ("Alas, I am an outcast! Woe to me, the Special One!"), and being for a change also the object and not only the subject of the subconscious patricidal needs has made me think these things twice before taking the side of a beggar, ruffian or alcoholic just because he's an outlaw. I think this white vs. black sheep idealism really goes 1:1, both are equally wrong, when sides are taken intuitively.
This! And it's also ridiculous how endless this pit gets even when I try to balance things out by not choosing sides. Balancing is so easily seen as choosing the other side, even when painstakingly trying to underline it is not. Thus I am again the scapegoat castout defending the opposite of underdog, which is the underdog in a sphere full of underdogs. I'm not referring to SoA circles by this, but general experiences in the underground social circles. It's easy to be really out of place in such spheres where people try to identify with the opposite of this or that norm and you yourself feel like building identity is not the reason I'm there at all. The Azazelian martyr can actually do alot of harm if he doesn't see those places and the indentity building some sort of recovery halls and leave them be and accept the desert is where he must return.
Yes, that is right.
Nevertheless, I actually understand this underdog attitude, which I am not entirely free of. The search for a social role is innate to all of us. Whether we are aware of it or not; we have a certain role in a group and mostly act in accordance with that role. We strive to maintain this role even if it harms ourselves or others. A victim mostly unconsciously strives to remain a victim, a rebel tries to remain a rebel, giver wants to stay giver, taker wants to stay taker. Becoming aware of these things is not easy. These schemata form our personality and that is exactly what is torn to pieces when we let them go. It is a cruel process to go through.
Ave wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:32 pm Why did Jeesus encouraged people to give away all their posessions? I have thought a lot of ethics of money and consuming. I know that some of my "altruism" stems out of guilt of being a priviledged westerner. And from a masocistic place of "not being worthy" of the priviledge.
Oh, that an intersting question.
Sometimes I think that the word of Jesus is misinterpreted today. In many films, the poor hold a morally higher position than the one who owns something. (e.g. the classic Cinderella story) A picture is produced that shows you are a better person if you own less. I think that's wrong, it is precisely this idea of the black/white sheep. Being poor doesn't make anyone a better person. If there is someone who likes to make you believe that, then most likely it is the rich. This is how the Church preached it and I still find it ridiculous that someone should cover with gold, live in a palast and preach humility and renunciation to others.
In my interpretation, Jesus did not demand others to be poor. He tells us that the love for money is a sin, not the money itself. I would say it's more about not clinging to material things it does not mean that you have to be poor in order to act ethically valid.

Of course, giving or sharing has an ethical and spiritual value, but it is not limited to material things. You can also give someone your attention or maybe some of your time.
I've found that giving or helping is not always positive. For some it is also a female (of course not limited to women) form of dominance and can take on traits of toxic maternity. At this moment, the helper strives to keep the person in need of help in order to keep his helper position. (Just a general note, not directed to you)
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Nefastos
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Nefastos »

Very good to have more discussion about this thing, which is quite a challenge because of the name and thus energy and challenge of our patron.
Kenazis wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:42 pmWhat I meant with underdogs and outcasts, was people who are not believed, pushed down, not understood etc. Not just the people who are different than majority, even these go under the same "category".

As did I. Because such a Left Hand Path martyr's idea, in fall, is always this: I am not – or the one I identify with in sympathy is not – believed, but pushed down, and not understood. That is, the whole of the situation is not taken into careful and nuanced consideration, but one's intuitive feeling that the blamed one must be blameless, remains deep within ourselves, if we have been wronged in the past. (And most of us Left Hand Path followers fall into this danger zone.) One of the most perverse form of this psychological situation is seen in the well known phenomenon of the mass murderers who get a truckload of fan mail from women who see that they are just misunderstood.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Peregrina
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Peregrina »

Ave wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:32 pm Your talk about the azazelian martyr got me thinking.

There's a hobo that hangs out near the grocery store I go to. He has very powerful eyes, and looks right into your eyes, piercingly. I have played out this underdog drama with him during my shop trips. When he looks at me I feel a strong sense that I owe him something. That I should give him what is "mine" (my money, my posessions even my body). And in his presence I feel deeply ashamed of my middle classy outlooks, like I should give it up just to convince him that "I'm really just (like) you". I've had a fantasy that he'd devour me in some way. No doubt I've projected a heavy bunch of my inner drama to him. (In my childhood I was first "the golden child" and the the black sheep of the family and I realized that these polarities play out in my inner world constantly.)

Why did Jeesus encouraged people to give away all their posessions? I have thought a lot of ethics of money and consuming. I know that some of my "altruism" stems out of guilt of being a priviledged westerner. And from a masocistic place of "not being worthy" of the priviledge.

It's not pity that I feel for the hobo nor it's genuine compassion, it's almost a knowing that he owns me in some mysterious way. Maybe the things I project into him, own me. I don't know. My ethics is messy.
I once went to meditation retreat led by Ngagpa Maitreya (Pekka Airaksinen), where he said that there´s a very pleasurable tantric practice in which you feed yourself to your enemies.
I wonder if all the people who practice that are somehow masochistic :lol:
But yes, I too have these fantasies where I am devoured by people I know, especially if I´m not willing to put their interest before mine. Usually these occur as distractions when I´m about to do something that´s important to me, "selfish" so to speak.

Could it be that you´re sensitive to energies and the sense of being owned by a hobo was you feeling his lust for you? I´ve had similar kind of experiences around sexually frustrated men.
Cerastes wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:15 pm The search for a social role is innate to all of us. Whether we are aware of it or not; we have a certain role in a group and mostly act in accordance with that role. We strive to maintain this role even if it harms ourselves or others. A victim mostly unconsciously strives to remain a victim, a rebel tries to remain a rebel, giver wants to stay giver, taker wants to stay taker. Becoming aware of these things is not easy. These schemata form our personality and that is exactly what is torn to pieces when we let them go. It is a cruel process to go through.
I take that this atmosphere in which we live nowadays, where the most horrible fate is being mediocre and invisible, encourages people to take unhealthy roles, only so that they could feel that they matter and exist.
It´s more effortless and faster to go down than slowly, slowly try to better yourself and perhaps not gain much glory and attention by doing so.
Guess the emphasis should be on beneficial acts instead of roles, but I don´t think anyone has that´s much capasity so they´d be able to consider all of their acts individually, so we must rely on some kind of programming anyway.
The more burdened and busy you are, the easier it is to get trapped in roles.
Last edited by Peregrina on Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Soror O
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Soror O »

I've tried to post on this thread for over couple of days know and the text just keeps disappearing. Which is nice. Thank you Malja anyway for sharing your devouring fantasies, you gave me some important clues.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Peregrina
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Re: Ethical Principles

Post by Peregrina »

Any time, always a pleasure when somebody benefits from my exhibitionism ;)
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