Monastic Life

Convictions, morals, other societies and religions.
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Nefastos
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Monastic Life

Post by Nefastos »

Our light-hearted discussion in the music thread led to this topic which might be good to take as its own.
Cerastes wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:41 pm
Nefastos wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:00 pmIn 1998, the only thing I did was to sit home reading and planned about going to monastery. This might be one key to understand my later need for things that explicitly lack in depth.


Did you actually go to monastery or did you just plan to go there?
I‘m asking because it is hard for me to imagine that a young man would want to go to monastery by own will. I often had discussions about this with my grandma who wanted me to go there at least for a few months of silent retreat.


I wanted to go there by my own will. How exactly one sees monastery might mean different things to different people, but I had to consider it seriously, because it seemed almost an only option of dedicating my life totally to spirituality in a way that our society would somehow understand.

It was already been a fact for me for many years that nothing else interested me in life but its spiritual depth: everything else was only tools or obstacles for that single aim. I have never truly "belonged" to our quite Protestant Finnish society with its strong emphasis on the idealism of work and almost zero possibilities to actually attend to societal life in a religious way, if you are not part of the Protestant clergy. It would be a great blessing to somehow remove that extreme pressure of the daily struggle between the inner (heart-felt and actual) and the outer (societal and artificial) worlds and give the message to the societal structures: "I have this place, see, I am doing something that you can call by a name and be done with it".

And since this is the most important point, I was for a long time very seriously considering making the extreme compromises of:

1) Joining to the religion which I do not fully support in a theological sense (Orthodox Christianity) but whose doctrines I would have been able to interpret in my mind as symbolically valid.

2) Deliberately putting myself in the system which works by removing one's personal will in order to transform it into a form that is thought to be more suitable to God. (I read a lot about Orthodox monastic practices at that time, and it puts a great stress on this liberating one of his apparently evil ego.)

3) Trying the institutionalized version of killing out my sexuality, even though it showed no sign of lessening by any personal efforts. This I thought (and still think) might have ended up in a serious disaster.

So I chose to not try this way, but it was very tempting for a long time. I have never looked back though, but think that I made a good choice not trying out monastic life. Come to think of it, my world view's collapse (or was it elation?) to Satanism happened quite soon, and had I been inside the walls of monastery at that time, something extremely nasty might have born from such a disaster. I'm thinking something on the line of the Name of the Rose kind of freaking out.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Cerastes
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Re: Monastic Life

Post by Cerastes »

Thank you for the detailed answer.

I think I can understand your intention, although it is still very unusual and therefore fascinating.
My attitude towards the monastery is very different. It was always used as a threat or punishment. If you are not obedient, you have to go to the monastery and become a nun. In the old Catholic concept, the punishing God is always much more important than the loving God.

The discrepancy between the material and spiritual world might in fact have been smaller in such a facility. However, I think your decision not to go there was right. Even the slightest disagreement with the clergy turns into rage if you are forced to attain it on a daily basis over and over again.

When I read your comment, the almost sentimental idea of satanic/occult monastery that is more LHP directed and less dogmatic than the Christian monasteries came to mind. Of course by now this is just a thought experiment but I wonder if it would be helpful for spiritual ascension to live in an environment that supports spirituality and automatically creates a distance to the outside world.
There is one thing I like even at catholic monastries. I like the way they are in union with nature and how they refuse to take part in the consumption madness that is currently going on around here. This is, I think, very valuable in spirituality in general.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
obnoxion
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Re: Monastic Life

Post by obnoxion »

I, too, have entartained monastic intentions, but I came to realize that what I seaked from the monasteries of my reveries, I could and shoud rather try to achieve by rearranging my mundane life. I came idealize the legendary mahasiddhas, many of who led worldly lives with families and long hair. It is a difficult ideal, too, but one better suited for me than monastic life.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Smaragd
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Re: Monastic Life

Post by Smaragd »

Point me to the monastery of Star of Azazel an I’m heading over there to live at once! I will provide its habitants and visitors with the fruits of the garden and take part of the literary work, and that of art, as well as the choir practice. The masses during the day and night will have my presence also.

I’d imagine such a satanic monastery would hold modified monastic vows, perhaps individually tailored for every practicer. And there would be family crypts for those inclined for such a way of life. Overall seclusion from the outer world would be minimal and I’d imagine the place would be intercating with the world in many ways to preserve the vitality through the otherness of the world as it is now, although places of peace and quiet would be preserved with utmost care. Oh what wonderful place the library would be!

Excuse my indulgence with the world of fantasy. I have also thought of monasteries as an option in the past, but quite superficially when it comes to the theology side of things. Mainly the idea came from trying to find ways to consecrate life for making art. A bit silly option especially regarding the type of creative output I had back then, and how my religious life was in quite a hopeless shoes, but in despair all sorts of options circle through. I’m not sure if the individual potential people possess can be truly acnowledged and encouraged until we have left the jealous chains to the material world. Also it seems like tending these chains in different ways keeps the people grounded and helping the whole of humanity.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
obnoxion
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Re: Monastic Life

Post by obnoxion »

Smaragd wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:14 am Mainly the idea came from trying to find ways to consecrate life for making art.
There have been artistic communities that have put monastic ideals to practice. The Nazarenes come to mind in particular.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Nefastos
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Re: Monastic Life

Post by Nefastos »

Smaragd wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:14 amPoint me to the monastery of Star of Azazel an I’m heading over there to live at once!


Even though I came to somewhat similar conclusion as sod Obnoxion in that my penitence should be the one of inner monastery, which might make one's spiritual practices different in shape although similar in essence (ie. including everything into spiritual practice), I have never given up the idea of Satanic monastery. And the idea has got so sincere enthusiasm from some other brethren over the years that I tend to think it will happen at some point. After all, it would not necessarily need an impossible amount of money, and everything else we've already got: shared ethics and philosophical tendencies, practices for prayer and worship, need for spiritual life without distractions, and the love of flowing robes.

I the last few days I have also thought again one of my tendencies suitable to monastic life: the need to constantly improve not my skills, but my abstract attributes. To increase the inner power by concentration of soul's totality. It is surprisingly hard to put in words what I mean here. But I consider this mindset as partly neurotic, partly heroic attitude towards unattainable spiritual perfection and power of magical, holistic nature. Sharpening and sharpening the basic forces within. This attitude, by the way, might be the reason (or one of the reasons) why the sexual energy proved to be unkillable. For energetic libido is something that gets conjured up constantly in such a process of constant concentration. Of course, such practice – or a way of living – can be used under any circumstances; but it naturally yearns after the state with less distractions, to make the focus more intense and less prone to unimportant profane drama.

By this I do not mean that monastic life would in itself be the escape from unimportant profane drama. On the contrary, when I studied the Orthodox monastic practices and tales, I noticed that many people's minds seemed to lessen in those circles and bring drama about in there. There was a lesson for me to learn in that. The same we see often in occult groups: even while supposedly working with the highest of objectives, our minds turn to pettiest of power struggles and social melodramas. But I hope that much of the problem might be avoided by the Azazelian monastery's free movement: I think few brethren should move in permanently, but only in weeks or months per time. In that way, circles of power could be kept more fluid, lessening the problem of standing water breeding the reptiles of mind.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Smaragd
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Re: Monastic Life

Post by Smaragd »

Nefastos wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:02 pm There was a lesson for me to learn in that. The same we see often in occult groups: even while supposedly working with the highest of objectives, our minds turn to pettiest of power struggles and social melodramas. But I hope that much of the problem might be avoided by the Azazelian monastery's free movement: I think few brethren should move in permanently, but only in weeks or months per time. In that way, circles of power could be kept more fluid, lessening the problem of standing water breeding the reptiles of mind.
I though of the same problem this morning as I've noticed my presence is easily experienced and interpreted as poisonous or malicious, because of the constant inner struggle interpreted as conflict between individuals. Another possible answer to the problem would be creating a conscious satanic culture within the convent basing on ackowledging the inner drama and emotions without seeing them to be unconditionally projected as outside dramas. Well, maybe I'm naively optimistic here for the natural dynamic tends to seek and hold on to the outer counter poles in good and bad. But our philosophical basis already addresses this if seeking unity between seemingly opposing forms of esoteric worldviews are interpreted in practice as giving space for the individual conflict and the challenging the conflicts projection outside to be handled with Love, for example, by seeing what is the core truth between and letting the excess to be blessed by the canker-worms, catepillars and palmer-worms.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Beshiira
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Re: Monastic Life

Post by Beshiira »

I am also drawn to monasticism. It's wonderful that there still are places that are solely dedicated to spiritual life – even when such ideals seem to be less and less relevant in the Western zeitgeist. It can be very intense to spend time in such a place, and the idea of living in a monastery full-time can feel very appealing indeed.

This idea of the Inner Monastery has fascinated me a lot during the last few years. To strive to live as if the whole world is ones monastery, as if every task or work is an act of prayer and dedication. As mentioned above, monasteries are by no means immune to mundane humane drama, and simply the act of seclusion probably doesn't solve anything. Visible seclusion (just like a distinctive religious dress etc...) can even cause the wrong kind of ”pride of spiritual achievement” which can then become a hindrance... Just like there are challenges in the idea of the Inner Monastery: taking the whole thing ”too lightly”, assuming an ”everything goes” -mentality and so forth. Maybe again these are matters of temperament, as seems to be the case so often.

An interesting sidenote here are also the ”wandering monks” or friars. As I've understood it, for example in traditions following Saint Francis it's common not to live in one particular monastery the whole time – but to actually travel a lot and work among people. Also in (at least some branches of) Zen buddhism being a monk or a nun can mean many different things – from being a hermit to living a family life in the city etc. So maybe in this case too it's less important what happens in ones life visibly. Maybe one has to be already in touch with ones Inner Monastery, in order to be able to live in a visible monastery?

In any case, abandoning the world does seem to be at the core of monastic life, in one way or another. Not to ”be home” in the world, not to identify oneself too strongly with ”everyday life”. I also believe that this is possible without seclusion from the mundane life, and it can be even a rockier road than these traditional forms of monasticism mentioned in this thread. Indeed, not least because in that way one really doesn't get any ”recognition” in the society's eyes. (Even the ”Fools for Christ” in the Orthodox Christian tradition got their share of respect – we are just fools. :) ) To truly abandon the world, while at the same time ”living in the world”, while at the same time not becoming cold-hearted or giving in to cynicism and hopelessness – what a challenge!
"Ja kun minun kirkkauteni kulkee ohitse, asetan minä sinut kallion rotkoon ja peitän sinut kädelläni, kunnes olen kulkenut ohi.
Kun minä sitten siirrän pois käteni, näet sinä minun selkäpuoleni; mutta minun kasvojani ei voi kenkään katsoa."
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Cerastes
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Re: Monastic Life

Post by Cerastes »

I’m amazed that there have obviously been serious thoughts and discussions about this before.
Nefastos wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:02 pm After all, it would not necessarily need an impossible amount of money, and everything else we've already got: shared ethics and philosophical tendencies, practices for prayer and worship, need for spiritual life without distractions, and the love of flowing robes.
… and you already have the perfect monk haircut.

The catholic monastry nearby my birth place offers 4-10 week silent retreats for everyone who aims to withdraw into spirituality for a while. A lot of managers or business people go there to escape the stressful mundane world and prevent burnout but the monastry claims a lot of money for it, like church facilities tend to do.
Smaragd wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:47 pm I though of the same problem this morning as I've noticed my presence is easily experienced and interpreted as poisonous or malicious, because of the constant inner struggle interpreted as conflict between individuals.
Whenever different people meet and interact closely, there will be social dramas. Everyone always brings a package with personal problems that tend to come to the surface even more if surrounded by silence. Not even once in my life have I met a group without this kind of problems. The difference lies in how the group members deal with it and if they are able to overcome it or start dwelling on it forever. I see it is an essential part of the great work to slowly overcome these personal hurdles of the ego (in the profane sense). Maybe such a facility would be able to provide an environment or even some sort of guidance that can lesser these social conflicts. Also it is important for everyone to have some personal space, be it physical or mental.
My biggest problem with the idea of a monastry it that I fear cult-like or sectarian tendencies that often envolve unconciously from the dynamic of a religious group, especially with the tendency of escapism.
Smaragd wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:14 am I will provide its habitants and visitors with the fruits of the garden and take part of the literary work, and that of art, as well as the choir practice. The masses during the day and night will have my presence also.
This actually sounds good.
There will be a SoA monastry choir? Hm, I wonder what it sounds like. Will there be drums and guitares involved? :)
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
Mars
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Re: Monastic Life

Post by Mars »

Nefastos wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:29 pm And since this is the most important point, I was for a long time very seriously considering making the extreme compromises of:

1) Joining to the religion which I do not fully support in a theological sense (Orthodox Christianity) but whose doctrines I would have been able to interpret in my mind as symbolically valid.

2) Deliberately putting myself in the system which works by removing one's personal will in order to transform it into a form that is thought to be more suitable to God. (I read a lot about Orthodox monastic practices at that time, and it puts a great stress on this liberating one of his apparently evil ego.)

When I was quite seriously interested in monasticism around the time I turned 30, some years ago now, these two points were in my mind also. I thought that by entering a monastery I could dive so deep into inner work that I could transcend the dogmatic boundaries of Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I remember that Pekka Ervast in some book of his, I don't remember which, described a meeting with a Catholic or Orthodox monk who told Ervast that inside the monastery the dogmas aren't strict and one is free to for example believe in reincarnation, as the monk did. Maybe I could've managed to pull of this first point.

The second point was the more problematic one and I wrestled with it a lot. In the end this became such a big hurdle that it was a big reason for my abandoning the monastery delusions which is fine, since trying to actualize point number two would've most likely twisted my personality to a thousand knots more than it already is.

It's funny that you mention that after your monastery phase you turned to Satanism, since for me as well major upheavals in my personal and spiritual life happened quite soon after I abandoned my monastic dreams. Maybe when one is seriously ready to do something so drastic as to enter a monastery built around a religion one doesn't wholly embrace is a sign of something major bubbling up from within the psyche.
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