Faith, Superstition and the Unknown Visitor

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Faith, Superstition and the Unknown Visitor

Postby obnoxion » Wed May 30, 2018 7:35 pm

Marie-Louis von Franz wrote that one of the greates contribution of Jung and his work was to teach us to keep our door open for the "unknown visitor", and to cherish the opening for the divine in our psyche. The Unknown Visitor is a well known theme from mythology and folklore, where one or several divine guests in disguise come visit the hero of the story. This is also an archetypal theme that is found in dreams. And opening in the psyche reminds me of a wound, and one translation of mysticism is "the tending of the wound".

As well as openess, the concept of an unknown visitor also associates to the ideas of hospitality and patience. Patience is paramount to both Neoplatonist and Kashmir Shaivite meditation. I've read a neoplatonist describe meditation as siting and waiting for the sun to rise. One does not have to procuce anything, just wait. And, according to Swami Lakshmanjoo, unlike other teachers, Abhinavagupta thought that the yogi is not the subject nor the blissful state the object of meditation, but the yogi is actually the object and the "blissful state of Parabhairava" is the subject. So it is the the Paravhairava that comes, as the unknown visitor.

There are many tales in Tantric Buddhism where a Dakini has come to yogi in a low form doing disgusting things. The practice of the yogi might have attracted the Dakini, but it is the hospitality (depending on recognition or empathy) toward the unknown visitor that decides the success of the yogi.

So, in addition to having faith, I have tried to cherish in me some forms of superstition for its own sake. It has been for me a part of the process of taking care of the opening in my soul for the unknown visitor. And I would merit much of my vitality, positivity and inspiration to the flux through that secret opening.

Have these themes come up in you practice?
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Faith, Superstition and the Unknown Visitor

Postby Cerastes » Wed May 30, 2018 9:03 pm

obnoxion wrote:Marie-Louis von Franz wrote that one of the greates contribution of Jung and his work was to teach us to keep our door open for the "unknown visitor", and to cherish the opening for the divine in our psyche. The Unknown Visitor is a well known theme from mythology and folklore, where one or several divine guests in disguise come visit the hero of the story. This is also an archetypal theme that is found in dreams. And opening in the psyche reminds me of a wound, and one translation of mysticism is "the tending of the wound".

As well as openess, the concept of an unknown visitor also associates to the ideas of hospitality and patience. Patience is paramount to both Neoplatonist and Kashmir Shaivite meditation. I've read a neoplatonist describe meditation as siting and waiting for the sun to rise. One does not have to procuce anything, just wait. And, according to Swami Lakshmanjoo, unlike other teachers, Abhinavagupta thought that the yogi is not the subject nor the blissful state the object of meditation, but the yogi is actually the object and the "blissful state of Parabhairava" is the subject. So it is the the Paravhairava that comes, as the unknown visitor.

There are many tales in Tantric Buddhism where a Dakini has come to yogi in a low form doing disgusting things. The practice of the yogi might have attracted the Dakini, but it is the hospitality (depending on recognition or empathy) toward the unknown visitor that decides the success of the yogi.

So, in addition to having faith, I have tried to cherish in me some forms of superstition for its own sake. It has been for me a part of the process of taking care of the opening in my soul for the unknown visitor. And I would merit much of my vitality, positivity and inspiration to the flux through that secret opening.

Have these themes come up in you practice?
The metaphor of the „unbekannter Besucher“ (unknown visitor) goes very deep into social psychology in my interpretation.
The whole structure of a selective perception is made to hide aspects of truth that might stand contrary to our static mind. So of course our mind is often drawn to the well-known not to the unknown which is also the base of the major human desire for security. Whatever is unknown provides less safty and especially in groups with a high coherence it will often be mearched out.
So as you said the occultist is making himself vulnerable by opening up to the unknown. Personally I believe that every new idea needs some kind of superstition in the first place. I'd rather keep a little bit of the superstitious mind I used to have as a little girl than closing every door.
Unfortunatly I still didn't catch a flying unicorn so I guess I'll have to drive my a car to work tomorrow. :mrgreen:
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Re: Faith, Superstition and the Unknown Visitor

Postby obnoxion » Wed May 30, 2018 10:36 pm

Red Bird wrote:
obnoxion wrote:Marie-Louis von Franz wrote that one of the greates contribution of Jung and his work was to teach us to keep our door open for the "unknown visitor", and to cherish the opening for the divine in our psyche. The Unknown Visitor is a well known theme from mythology and folklore, where one or several divine guests in disguise come visit the hero of the story. This is also an archetypal theme that is found in dreams. And opening in the psyche reminds me of a wound, and one translation of mysticism is "the tending of the wound".

As well as openess, the concept of an unknown visitor also associates to the ideas of hospitality and patience. Patience is paramount to both Neoplatonist and Kashmir Shaivite meditation. I've read a neoplatonist describe meditation as siting and waiting for the sun to rise. One does not have to procuce anything, just wait. And, according to Swami Lakshmanjoo, unlike other teachers, Abhinavagupta thought that the yogi is not the subject nor the blissful state the object of meditation, but the yogi is actually the object and the "blissful state of Parabhairava" is the subject. So it is the the Paravhairava that comes, as the unknown visitor.

There are many tales in Tantric Buddhism where a Dakini has come to yogi in a low form doing disgusting things. The practice of the yogi might have attracted the Dakini, but it is the hospitality (depending on recognition or empathy) toward the unknown visitor that decides the success of the yogi.

So, in addition to having faith, I have tried to cherish in me some forms of superstition for its own sake. It has been for me a part of the process of taking care of the opening in my soul for the unknown visitor. And I would merit much of my vitality, positivity and inspiration to the flux through that secret opening.

Have these themes come up in you practice?
The metaphor of the „unbekannter Besucher“ (unknown visitor) goes very deep into social psychology in my interpretation.
The whole structure of a selective perception is made to hide aspects of truth that might stand contrary to our static mind. So of course our mind is often drawn to the well-known not to the unknown which is also the base of the major human desire for security. Whatever is unknown provides less safty and especially in groups with a high coherence it will often be mearched out.
Yes, this is the extraverted aspect of it, which is highly interesting. My angle, however, is rather introverted. You see, in examples Marie-Louise von Franz gives in her essay "The Unknown Visitor" ("Archetypal Dimensions of the Psyche", Sambhala 1999) the meeting with this visitor is an encounter with the Self. In examples of modern dreams, the visitor is often Christ - sometimes siting at the back of the church, or encountered as hobo; always unknown to others but the dreamer in question. And Christ in Jungian thought is arepresentation of the Self (of which the non-anthropomorfic representation would be the mandala). Thought the Self is a center of our constitution, our conscious mind is so distant to it, that its manifestations would seem outside of us and somhow strange. At least on the basic level, this would not, I think, contradict the Tantric Solipsism of Abhinavagupta, where the Self would be Shiva (named Para-Bhairava in my previous example) as a sort of subjective absolute.

In short, by amplifying this theme of the opening in the psyche for the divine visitor, it seems I am able to find some of the essentials (and perhaps the pecularities, too...) of my personal philosophy.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Faith, Superstition and the Unknown Visitor

Postby Cerastes » Thu May 31, 2018 12:27 am

Red Bird wrote:
obnoxion wrote:Marie-Louis von Franz wrote that one of the greates contribution of Jung and his work was to teach us to keep our door open for the "unknown visitor", and to cherish the opening for the divine in our psyche. The Unknown Visitor is a well known theme from mythology and folklore, where one or several divine guests in disguise come visit the hero of the story. This is also an archetypal theme that is found in dreams. And opening in the psyche reminds me of a wound, and one translation of mysticism is "the tending of the wound".

As well as openess, the concept of an unknown visitor also associates to the ideas of hospitality and patience. Patience is paramount to both Neoplatonist and Kashmir Shaivite meditation. I've read a neoplatonist describe meditation as siting and waiting for the sun to rise. One does not have to procuce anything, just wait. And, according to Swami Lakshmanjoo, unlike other teachers, Abhinavagupta thought that the yogi is not the subject nor the blissful state the object of meditation, but the yogi is actually the object and the "blissful state of Parabhairava" is the subject. So it is the the Paravhairava that comes, as the unknown visitor.

There are many tales in Tantric Buddhism where a Dakini has come to yogi in a low form doing disgusting things. The practice of the yogi might have attracted the Dakini, but it is the hospitality (depending on recognition or empathy) toward the unknown visitor that decides the success of the yogi.

So, in addition to having faith, I have tried to cherish in me some forms of superstition for its own sake. It has been for me a part of the process of taking care of the opening in my soul for the unknown visitor. And I would merit much of my vitality, positivity and inspiration to the flux through that secret opening.

Have these themes come up in you practice?
The metaphor of the „unbekannter Besucher“ (unknown visitor) goes very deep into social psychology in my interpretation.
The whole structure of a selective perception is made to hide aspects of truth that might stand contrary to our static mind. So of course our mind is often drawn to the well-known not to the unknown which is also the base of the major human desire for security. Whatever is unknown provides less safty and especially in groups with a high coherence it will often be mearched out.
So as you said the occultist is making himself vulnerable by opening up to the unknown. Personally I believe that every new idea needs some kind of superstition in the first place. I'd rather keep a little bit of the superstitious mind I used to have as a little girl than closing every door.
Unfortunatly I still didn't catch a flying unicorn so I guess I'll have to drive my a car to work tomorrow. :mrgreen:
Your are right, I'm more of an extrovert person.
At least I was before rushing into occultism which had quite a big impact.
Let me try to explain my view. Meeting a „visitor“ is always an encouter of the Self.
Even if it is just another person, whatever you see depends on the inner Self and I'm not speaking of the visual part.
„What you see in others has more to do with who you are than with who other people are“
And this is exactly what happens if one wants to get in touch with hin inner „visitors“. Emotions and thoughts are manifesting trough a known archetype.
Not only do we fear other unknown person we also fear ourself and whatever manifests troughout our mind. We are a stranger to ourself. In fact we are the most dangerous stranger because one cannot run away from himself.
Sometimes I randomly start drawing a picture when I'm in a deep state of trance. After waking up I don't even remember drawing that motive. It usually looks like a complete stranger drew it and archetyes are often involved. I use those pictures to make contact to inne-most Self, like you would use a sigil to summon a entity.
...since this is an occultist forum I hopefully will not be labled insane for that. ;)
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Re: Faith, Superstition and the Unknown Visitor

Postby Insanus » Thu May 31, 2018 9:02 am

I often times feel like there is plenty of these unknown visitors going in and out almost like random thoughts. I think of every act as an expression of a mode of intentionality and it's not all that hard to find these as personalities that I internalize. I feel kind of dissociated from my personality but still there is a degree of control to what comes in and what goes out. In everyday life I've noticed that I'm at my most productive when I'm completely passive and I get nothing done when I'm active. I feel like my innermost nature is resistance and control and this resistance is what keeps the form as it is. Letting go lets the gnomes and fairies in and the deeper this is the higher the spirits met. Still, I kind of feel like the resistance itself can be understood differently if it's thought of as "letting go of letting go". I feel like there is an analogy to Satan as atma-kama manas.
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Re: Faith, Superstition and the Unknown Visitor

Postby Nefastos » Thu May 31, 2018 7:22 pm

While I am not completely sure I understand the full implications & context of this discussion, I wouldn't dream of letting that to stop me from contributing. Feel free to skip, however, my quite lengthy & personal ramblings.
obnoxion wrote:to keep our door open for the "unknown visitor", and to cherish the opening for the divine in our psyche [---] So, in addition to having faith, I have tried to cherish in me some forms of superstition for its own sake.


I think that this functions a bit differently for me, but the core might be the same, or similar.

Folklore says that you can often see "little people" (spirits) only from the corner of your eye; that there are things that you cannot see straight. For me this kind of obscuration have always been impossible, but where the "corner of the eye" is not the way, my way of trying to see through the things - so to say - with all the intellect, emotions &c. most intensively focused as one, creates another kind of permanent twilight zone. It is not in the corners, it is behind of everything perceived. Because it is my innate nature to torture the perception to its utmost, even hopelessly, such a process creates, or rather notices, the same kind of "haze" under everything perceived. There is always the the borderline, and it is not distant either, where our mind "blurs" all the experiences, every thought or perception we have, and we start relying on pure intuition.

As an analog, or example: How we perceive things physically is not how they are, and our mind is constantly translating our sensory perceptions to the language of corrected geometry. Also, we have no idea what is on the other side of this or that familiar building, or if there is another side of that building, or is the building even there; for we only see a fracture of a fracture of a fracture, and the mind's magician conjures up the rest. What we make up from this mirage world is of personal choice: usually people choose, like Descartes, to believe that things might be more or less as the consensus reality states that they are. I don't. What is seen as a mirage, philosophically known as a mirage, which does not feel real, and which has not any recognizable connection point with the real, is not real. Our world is like the emperor's new clothes, made up by the shared belief or ignorance. (And, of course, we can as well applaud to the Shiva's Unseen Clothes, made for a reason; to fanatically demand that all should shout aloud that there are no clothes would be quite distasteful and rude, for the display is still going on.)

...And thus my world is always magical, always metaphysical, always only poetical, and fully peopled by unseen things. "Magical realism" I think the idea is called when things are put as words in paper. ("Fiction" necessarily becomes almost like an oxymoron with this kind of mindset, so I cannot use it here.)

Because of this I might say that I do not have any "known visitors", but only dâkinis - often doing "disgusting things", but no less divine because of that.

obnoxion wrote:There are many tales in Tantric Buddhism where a Dakini has come to yogi in a low form doing disgusting things. The practice of the yogi might have attracted the Dakini, but it is the hospitality (depending on recognition or empathy) toward the unknown visitor that decides the success of the yogi.


These tests of one's intuition (which, of course, rests upon active use of empathy and wisdom both) might be the turning points of one's path & life, and as such, one thing that separates the profane from the occultist. Profane cannot choose the "irrational" (...for something being emotional or stupid is not irrational, but only the complementary other side of one's reason...), which necessitates great expanding of his former mindset, while the occultist is actually able to expand because of the constant practice to understand the very subtle & nuanced things which lay at the core of being. And this, therefore, becomes the point of locking & opening: such a process cannot be faked, and if one simply tries to grasp the lucky dâkini by hair or toe, he most likely becomes just a victim of such a "disgusting" visitor. How to see when under a surprising state there is sacredness and great expansion? Simply trying to invert one's ideas, to act spontaniously or something like that doesn't lead anywhere. Rather, I think that this is like that old story about the priest who seemingly walked on water to the sauna, but actually only he knew where the stepping-stones were just under the surface of water.

Insanus wrote:In everyday life I've noticed that I'm at my most productive when I'm completely passive and I get nothing done when I'm active. I feel like my innermost nature is resistance and control and this resistance is what keeps the form as it is. Letting go lets the gnomes and fairies in and the deeper this is the higher the spirits met. Still, I kind of feel like the resistance itself can be understood differently if it's thought of as "letting go of letting go". I feel like there is an analogy to Satan as atma-kama manas.


I think we might be following the same, or same kind of thread from just the opposite directions. My own trying to "let go" is to let go of the idea of letting go, by super-focusing of the superfocused activity. For me, trying the opposite would be like trying to kill out breathing or heartbeat. Finding one's identification from resistance blurs the very idea of who is the one who is doing... an experience that might be vital in the path of a Satanist (or create/demand such a path).
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Faith, Superstition and the Unknown Visitor

Postby Insanus » Thu May 31, 2018 10:50 pm

Nefastos wrote:
I think we might be following the same, or same kind of thread from just the opposite directions.
This really seems to be the rule when comparing our experiences!
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Re: Faith, Superstition and the Unknown Visitor

Postby obnoxion » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:27 am

Nefastos wrote:As an analog, or example: How we perceive things physically is not how they are, and our mind is constantly translating our sensory perceptions to the language of corrected geometry. Also, we have no idea what is on the other side of this or that familiar building, or if there is another side of that building, or is the building even there; for we only see a fracture of a fracture of a fracture, and the mind's magician conjures up the rest. What we make up from this mirage world is of personal choice: usually people choose, like Descartes, to believe that things might be more or less as the consensus reality states that they are. I don't. What is seen as a mirage, philosophically known as a mirage, which does not feel real, and which has not any recognizable connection point with the real, is not real. Our world is like the emperor's new clothes, made up by the shared belief or ignorance. (And, of course, we can as well applaud to the Shiva's Unseen Clothes, made for a reason; to fanatically demand that all should shout aloud that there are no clothes would be quite distasteful and rude, for the display is still going on.)

...And thus my world is always magical, always metaphysical, always only poetical, and fully peopled by unseen things. "Magical realism" I think the idea is called when things are put as words in paper. ("Fiction" necessarily becomes almost like an oxymoron with this kind of mindset, so I cannot use it here.)

Because of this I might say that I do not have any "known visitors", but only dâkinis - often doing "disgusting things", but no less divine because of that.
I think I share these thoughts exactly.

I suppose that much of what is commonly appreciated as concrete reality is to a considerable degree made up of ossified preferences. This is something that is exceedeingly difficult to put into words, because the words mean little if there is no experience to give them a life. It must be just as youe said:
Nefastos wrote: Profane cannot choose the "irrational" (...for something being emotional or stupid is not irrational, but only the complementary other side of one's reason...), which necessitates great expanding of his former mindset, while the occultist is actually able to expand because of the constant practice to understand the very subtle & nuanced things which lay at the core of being. And this, therefore, becomes the point of locking & opening: such a process cannot be faked, and if one simply tries to grasp the lucky dâkini by hair or toe, he most likely becomes just a victim of such a "disgusting" visitor.
The last sentences pertains, I feel, to the failure of thr downward path. For as the right regocnition of the unknown visitor is, in a way, the final achievement, the passive failure of recognition is the constant state of profane life, it would be the self-serving, manipulative and forceful way of grasping the visitor by the hair that is the great failure. Such encounters in the fairy-tales always lead to most horrible fates.
Red Bird wrote:Sometimes I randomly start drawing a picture when I'm in a deep state of trance. After waking up I don't even remember drawing that motive. It usually looks like a complete stranger drew it and archetyes are often involved. I use those pictures to make contact to inne-most Self, like you would use a sigil to summon a entity....since this is an occultist forum I hopefully will not be labled insane for that.
As an introvert myself, automatic drawing (I have some experience of it myself, though not as dissociative as you described) is a too passive method to profit me. But it might be a more appropriate practice for an extrovert. The aim of my practice would be a state that is sometimes called "the extroverted samadhi" or the bhairavi-mudra. I have read many descriptions of what bhairavi-mudra is, but I am referinng to the state that is symbolized by the boulging eyes of the Tantric Wrathful Deities. The enlarged eyeballs that have an intense stare, but that are not aimed at any particular point, refer to a state of spontanous fluidity in action, where one is immersed into an inner contemplation, and at the same time is completely alert and capapble in the wold around. So it is not unlike what fra Nefastos just wrote about above.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Faith, Superstition and the Unknown Visitor

Postby Cerastes » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:50 pm

As an introvert myself, automatic drawing (I have some experience of it myself, though not as dissociative as you described) is a too passive method to profit me. But it might be a more appropriate practice for an extrovert. The aim of my practice would be a state that is sometimes called "the extroverted samadhi" or the bhairavi-mudra. I have read many descriptions of what bhairavi-mudra is, but I am referinng to the state that is symbolized by the boulging eyes of the Tantric Wrathful Deities. The enlarged eyeballs that have an intense stare, but that are not aimed at any particular point, refer to a state of spontanous fluidity in action, where one is immersed into an inner contemplation, and at the same time is completely alert and capapble in the wold around. So it is not unlike what fra Nefastos just wrote about above.
Thanks, I need to read more about this. Sounds like something that is worth a deeper studying.
Offtopic note: I bet the majority of SoA members is male and introvert. Even the passivity seems to be connected with the occult work. Analysing this would be very intersting since my own „I want to change the world“-attitude was completly reversed in the last decade.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
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Re: Faith, Superstition and the Unknown Visitor

Postby Smaragd » Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:27 pm

After getting comfortable with the philosophy side of things (with the great help of our brotherhood) I felt the need to shed the cold rational mindset and open up for the possibilities. This has been something I'd call making the soil fruitful. (Talking about Dakinis' disgusting acts, Obnoxions interpretation of the corn scenes in Twin Peaks as demonic imagery flashes by.) Associating rational with cold, and warmth and empathy as "humane" plays nicely with the image of the wound as a symbol towards holistic approach and the blood which is so crucial to the warmth of our bodies.
Also, reading Blavatsky undoubt can affect one to 'swing the Lance of Longinus' since the way she tends to provoke leads to this decision that ok, I'll trust she's sincere, though often in sarcastic manner, or you just hate it and stop reading and miss the teachings she might be able to give. (Ofcourse there's the masochistic third option, but maybe that's besides the point.) I think her way of writing actually, quite ingeniously, cuts through the bullshit and leads the way towards tending the wound of impaired humanity, or alternatively guards the passage. And this while she is defending her work from the bullshit, which is tiring but something seems to be coming through.

Now the lance penetrates the side causing great suffering, and in such suffering time is the wall I want to overcome. Also the way time flows relates to the way I think "the unknown visits". The dual mind says the need to keep the door open points towards our incomplete nature and here the incomplete construct is the wound itself. Then with a bit more straight (or see-through as Nefastos described his way regarding concrete world) relationship to Chronos one might consider the wound belonging to humanity in it's completeness. Here Chronos stands as the guardian of immanence, presenting a question of how time itself is perceived rather than 'is it an illusion?'. Atleast for me this has been an important point for I tend to mix up the easiest way over the fence with the intuitive way. Sloth alert! which, I guess, points back to the "letting go", which I struggle with.

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