The issue with a religion of the Devil

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Adrian1192
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The issue with a religion of the Devil

Postby Adrian1192 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:11 pm

Hello everyone! Lately I've come across an idea which shifted my view of a religion of the Devil, be it Satanism/Luciferianism.


My argument with myself began when I thought "yeah, maybe Christianity is disguisting and maybe I don't want to have anything to do with it, but I have to pay it respect that at least can come up with something which stands on its own". And for this moment let's focus on this particular thing. When talking about Christianity , the mythological motifs of its stories are similar with the one of other religions, that's true, when it comes to mythology, most of it is the same in every religion, the gods and the forms of it differ. Christianity doesn't say so much "unlike {x}" or "in opposition of {x}". It is true that it has this function, to "demonize" other religions, and we know it very well, but let's take the essence of this religion. This kind of demonizing other cultures is a thing which was added by the clergy, but you also have the exemple of Gnostics, which were a lot in Hinduism (things like Kundalini meditation) or Hermeticists, alchemists, and most of occultism comes from loyal Christians. (as an exemple for this, when Christian and Buddhist clergy met, they could hardly come to a middle point and show understanding to each other, not the same thing can be said about the monks, they were highly friendly with each other and could have seen that beyond the names of their gods/entities/saviors realizing that at the core they share a lot of things, not saying that monks are occultists or something like that, but they still are highly spiritual people).
Now, with Christianity, if you remove this tendency, of comparing and throwing into mud other cultures, the core remains alive, and many people would say that then Christianity increases in value.


With the Devil, the things are pretty weird. There isn't a lot of myth going around this guy, all we know is that he is a rebel, done something bad, and that's it. This is what, I believe, it gives Satanism its "adogmatic" nature. This is pretty good if you ask me, that Satanism can't truly be defined being as a huge umbrella of many branches/definitions etc. This can make this religion act like a blank canvas in the front of an artist, in which the practitioner can go into the most profound depths of oneself and see how the Devil, as an archetype, and play by the pace of one's soul (not like this can't be done with other religions, but it's like Satanism it seems to be that which emphasises this the most, and the differences from Satanist to Satanist can be huge).

The problem here being that the Devil also is not like a mere blank canvas, but like a shredded one. It's rebellious function was made so prevalent over the course of the years that it can hardly be something authentic. Given to what I've said about Christianity, that if you remove the angst from it can actually increase in value, I don't know whether I can say the same about Satanism. It became a lot like an anti-copy of Christianity, and it won't surprise that if removed the rebellion out of it, just some ashes are left of it.






What do you guys think? Don't take this as an attack, it's just a thought which appeared in my head.
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music" -Friedrich Nietzsche
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Smaragd
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Re: The issue with a religion of the Devil

Postby Smaragd » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:32 pm

There's possibility to kind of mature that angst and see the otherness of Satan, here the King of the World, as a guide towards oneness. When there's no more need for juvenile angst one might start seeing the drama as a ”mere” movement. For me satanism isn't something I'll hold to the end, especially if it would be only rebellion after rebellion. Sure the workload is enormous but the point is to follow the King of the World to show me the door, to follow the movement by seeing through it until the path comes to the seeked place of union. There the last of the illusions have been cleared and one gets to shake the hand of the great opponent.

I hope I understood the problem correctly and made atleast some sense.
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Adrian1192
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Re: The issue with a religion of the Devil

Postby Adrian1192 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:43 pm

Interesting thoughts. What got me about your reply is something which I see present in many Satanists/Luciferians. It's this search for unity, but let me ask you, what do you understand as unity? Unity of opposites? Because if that's the case, the things are really interesting. As the Kabbalah teaches us, The Tree of Life/Sephirot has God in the Kether/Crown and it is represented as Unity, while on the Tree of Death/Qliphoth there is the Thaumiel, the Twin God, Satan and Moloch which represent Separation.


Our strive for Unity is really interesting and, maybe because I'm just a beginner I don't understand it, but can the Tree of Death be the gate to the paradoxical realm of the spirit, in which the Qliphoth becomes a source of Life, thus awakening us to a kind of primordial paradox?
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music" -Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: The issue with a religion of the Devil

Postby Heith » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:29 am

Hello Adrian, nice to hear from you. I was going to reply to your post but Smaragd beat me to it.
Adrian1192 wrote:Interesting thoughts. What got me about your reply is something which I see present in many Satanists/Luciferians. It's this search for unity, but let me ask you, what do you understand as unity? Unity of opposites? Because if that's the case, the things are really interesting. As the Kabbalah teaches us, The Tree of Life/Sephirot has God in the Kether/Crown and it is represented as Unity, while on the Tree of Death/Qliphoth there is the Thaumiel, the Twin God, Satan and Moloch which represent Separation.


Our strive for Unity is really interesting and, maybe because I'm just a beginner I don't understand it, but can the Tree of Death be the gate to the paradoxical realm of the spirit, in which the Qliphoth becomes a source of Life, thus awakening us to a kind of primordial paradox?
I can't really comment on your suggestions to Qliphoth, as I'm not at all versed in said lore. Perhaps if Jiva happens to see this, he could have a better idea as to your question. My knowledge is sadly very limited to northern European and Siberian practices. I'll try to reply with my best ability to your thoughts otherwise, so please bear with me.

One of the primary goals of the Star of Azazel is so seek to unite practices (/thoughts/symbols etc) which at first glance seem to be the opposite. Perhaps a good example of this would be Christ and Satan, one which represents the Right hand path, and the other, the Left hand Path. We believe that a true understanding can only be achieved by uniting these two hands, the right and the left. But then, how does one define Satan (or Christ?)? If we were to ask from a hundred SoA members this question, we would get a hundred different answers. Some operate on a theistic level, some on atheistic. To some these are symbols, to some actual Masters, and some feel a little distant from both and are studying other things or systems. I guess it could be said to be a search to map out the world where everything connects.

It's sometimes difficult to go beyond a kind of "trendy" Satanism, which to me appears as a quite juvenile ego trip and a worship of symbols or people. Overall in these types of Satanism there seems to be a tendency to focus really hard on one or two aspects, and to forget or despise the rest. Things like "I am strong, I must be strong so therefore I will actually only develop those things which come easily to me" can often follow a person's emotional impulses. Is that strength? Hate and violence for example are this kind of things. It's much harder to develop one's empathy, even towards people who "don't deserve" it. And I think the idea of Satanism is a strive, to better one self; to win those obstacles that come on one's path. But how are they won? One can not only tear down, one must also build. But at the same time, one can not be afraid to tear things down when they don't function, when they are harmful. But this is a little off topic, sorry about that. Perhaps it a little bit sheds light to the way I see the Star of Azazel's work at least; that every action finds it counterpart, that every light casts a shadow when it meets an object, that fire is not simply useful for destroying but also for warmth, light and purifying. I guess the challenge for us is to appreciate and find the opposites from our hearts, for example Satan and Christ. To some, the idea of Satan is repulsive. To others, the idea of Christ is repulsive. So it can be a real challenge.

I'd also like to thank you for your concern regarding our reaction to your first post but also to say that there is no need to be concerned -we welcome all polite conversation, and it's always nice to read other people's thoughts as they can widen one's own perspective. Thank you for participating on our forums.
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Smaragd
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Re: The issue with a religion of the Devil

Postby Smaragd » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:08 am

Adrian1192 wrote:Interesting thoughts. What got me about your reply is something which I see present in many Satanists/Luciferians. It's this search for unity, but let me ask you, what do you understand as unity? Unity of opposites? Because if that's the case, the things are really interesting. As the Kabbalah teaches us, The Tree of Life/Sephirot has God in the Kether/Crown and it is represented as Unity, while on the Tree of Death/Qliphoth there is the Thaumiel, the Twin God, Satan and Moloch which represent Separation.


Our strive for Unity is really interesting and, maybe because I'm just a beginner I don't understand it, but can the Tree of Death be the gate to the paradoxical realm of the spirit, in which the Qliphoth becomes a source of Life, thus awakening us to a kind of primordial paradox?
Yes, unity of opposites. Regarding the Sephirot and the Qliphoth I can't say much as my knowledge on them tread baby steps, but I've heard of an idea The Tree of Life already including everything. When you get below Kether you see the separation there, one becomes two and so on. Bearing in mind I'm a total novice, I'd say shaking the hand of the great opponent happens on Kether. If the Qliphoth is to be taken seriously I'd think of it as a helpful mirror to see the emanation going different directions. For example if you say Thaumiel represents separation it underlines the downfall from Kether — Kether as a watershed. Meditating on these directions sure sounds helpful for trying to reach that paradoxical unity, although I feel there is a great wall blocking the way. Maybe the key is, again, seeing through the movement of emanation?

This got me thinking does this symbolical language hold the water so to speak. Does emanation really have different directions or is it rather just a waterfall kind of thing, where the mass of the water is our human structure. We can observe the lower and the higher parts, but the stream runs in one direction. Then again our striving for the truth might be thought as the stream turning upwards. There seems to be loops when we haven't figured something out. For example fear can make us handicapped and unable to cross some barriers until we've managed to grasp the problem behind the loop. Again, this kind of striving across the barriers can be seen as working with Satan until we can see through the great wall.
Heith wrote:It's sometimes difficult to go beyond a kind of "trendy" Satanism, which to me appears as a quite juvenile ego trip and a worship of symbols or people. Overall in these types of Satanism there seems to be a tendency to focus really hard on one or two aspects, and to forget or despise the rest.
In this kind of juvenile satanism the timeless gods, Satan amongst them, ask of timeless devotion, but there seems to be no evolving there. When every aspect is considered a path is opened where one can reach the point of equality to those gods, to which point I referred with 'the shaking of hands'.
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Re: The issue with a religion of the Devil

Postby Kavi » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:00 pm

"With the Devil, the things are pretty weird. There isn't a lot of myth going around this guy, all we know is that he is a rebel, done something bad, and that's it."

This is a reason why I expanded horizon for example to see how some people view Devil in islamic world. There Iblis can be seen as a lying rebel who disobeyed God, but also as an ideal for a true lover who accepts regular stone as a gift from one's master, when others are waiting for a precious jewel stone. People want salvation by any cost while Iblis accepts the damnation from Beloved.

I see somekind of analogy between Leili and Majnoon and Iblis and Allah. Like an old Azazel myth. Both Majnoon and Iblis can be found in the desert and are separated from their beloved and crying about their love. But even from Bible the book of Job gives so much to think of that I can't see Satan as a mere rebel.
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Re: The issue with a religion of the Devil

Postby Heith » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:29 pm

Kavi wrote: This is a reason why I expanded horizon for example to see how some people view Devil in islamic world. There Iblis can be seen as a lying rebel who disobeyed God, but also as an ideal for a true lover who accepts regular stone as a gift from one's master, when others are waiting for a precious jewel stone. People want salvation by any cost while Iblis accepts the damnation from Beloved.

I see somekind of analogy between Leili and Majnoon and Iblis and Allah. Like an old Azazel myth. Both Majnoon and Iblis can be found in the desert and are separated from their beloved and crying about their love. But even from Bible the book of Job gives so much to think of that I can't see Satan as a mere rebel.
Oh, super interesting! Thank you for sharing. Have you read a lot on the subject?
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Re: The issue with a religion of the Devil

Postby Kavi » Tue May 01, 2018 11:38 pm

Heith wrote:
Oh, super interesting! Thank you for sharing. Have you read a lot on the subject?
You are welcome!
Let's say I have read some amount but still not enough in my opinion. :D
I remember fra Obnoxion talked about small book called "The great Satan Iblis" by Javad Nurbakhsh here at the forum and also in his article in Hylätty kivi. Besides this some poets as Rumi has written about Satan's appearance in more or less similar manner.

The well known pride is interesting as well: "I will never bow down to your creation. You have made me of fire while your creation, a man is made of mud and clay".
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Re: The issue with a religion of the Devil

Postby Jiva » Sat May 05, 2018 5:41 am

Heith wrote: I can't really comment on your suggestions to Qliphoth, as I'm not at all versed in said lore. Perhaps if Jiva happens to see this, he could have a better idea as to your question.
Hmm… well, I’m not sure how much help I can be regarding the Qliphoth, especially the modern understanding. In terms of a psychological understanding of religion, whether an idea has a historical pedigree or is a new invention is largely irrelevant in my opinion. That said, I don’t really understand the Modernist need to pose literal, binary opposites; i.e. Regardie’s basic invention of a formal tree of death in direct opposition to the tree of life. I find it more fruitful to think of things in a more abstract manner, which I suppose could sound quite pretentious, but I suppose my point is that I don’t see such oppositional characteristics as completely segregated from each other. Some small and unsubtle examples: God is vengeful, but also merciful; Satan is enlightening, but also limiting. In other words, I think attempting to dilute a religious/mythological figure into a single archetypical characteristic – to which there is inevitably a direct opposite – removes the subtlety in these religions/mythologies, but also in us as the heirs of these religions/mythologies.
Kavi wrote: I remember fra Obnoxion talked about small book called "The great Satan Iblis" by Javad Nurbakhsh here at the forum and also in his article in Hylätty kivi.
I have a frustratingly limited understanding of Islamic esotericism, but I bought this book based on obnoxion’s article. And yes, on its own, it does present a huge amount of opinions (or, perhaps, selected quotes) regarding Iblis, that are fascinating in their diversity.
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Re: The issue with a religion of the Devil

Postby Insanus » Wed May 09, 2018 6:57 am

To my understanding the Qliphoth is not actually any real tree in opposition to the tree of life, but is situated in the false 11th sephira daath. The qliphas (meaning "shells") are not like "inverse evil versions" of the sephira, but rather limited intellectual interpretations of them. Therefore, for example Thaumiel is not "Kether gone wrong", but rather Kether as an object of thought.
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