Pantheism

Convictions, morals, other societies and religions.
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Kenazis
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Re: Pantheism

Postby Kenazis » Tue May 16, 2017 1:27 pm

Vanadís wrote:It is so amazing to have new awakenings inside your world(s)view!
Yes!
"In darkness let me dwell, The ground shall sorrow be..."
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Sebomai
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Re: Pantheism

Postby Sebomai » Wed May 17, 2017 6:26 pm

Vanadís wrote:I'm just studying Grant's Nightside of Eden and it really resonates with me. Earlier I was more pagan style pantheist focusing on earths energies. Now after more intense Thelemic studies my pantheism have been opening up towards the stars and black holes and Nuit <3

It is so amazing to have new awakenings inside your world(s)view!
I love Grant's work. I'm currently on book 7, Outer Gateways, of the 9 books in the Typhonian Trilogies. If you want to study Grant together in private messages or on fb chat, let me know! I'm always happy to discuss his work. And Fra. Fomalhaut is also a big fan of his writings.
Vanadís

Re: Pantheism

Postby Vanadís » Thu May 18, 2017 12:13 pm

Sebomai wrote: If you want to study Grant together in private messages or on fb chat, let me know! I'm always happy to discuss his work. And Fra. Fomalhaut is also a big fan of his writings.
I'll get back to you after reading more :) For now I just try to read him with an open mind, because some of his central facts have been "total crap" in my mind before, but some other stuff he writes about is so well put together, like some Thelemic hints added to Blavatsky's proto-ideas and then some Setian seasonings and outcome is interesting mix, where (in my opinion) something is very important revealings and something is way-behind-the-X-files-series-stuff. But because I know his texts yet so poorly, I don't have enough material to disguss with.

Thx God and Satan for books!
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Insanus
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Re: Pantheism

Postby Insanus » Fri May 19, 2017 6:01 am

I think I'm some kind of gnostic dualist, heavily thelemic at least. I think of "everything" as the four letters of Tetragrammaton, everything in the "everything but no more" sense. Everything is an obstacle, everything is a nuisance & therefore everything is also the object of the great work. Nothing as nothing, as beyond, as nowhere is the ideal purpose of it. Nothing as a part of some more total everything eliminates the sole meaning of the word in my opinion.
Vanadís wrote: So via cosmic manifestation God is in all, but also in no-thing, because god is already in potential, where nothing IS, but everything is able to be. Total blackness, call this side Satan if you like. Maybe this is something I can share with anti-cosmics :D
THE PRAYING MANTIS

"Say: God is One." This I obeyed: for a thousand and one times a night for one thousand nights and one did I affirm the Unity.
But "night" only means LAYLAH; and Unity and GOD are not worth even her blemishes.
Al-lah is only sixty-six; but LAYLAH counteth up to Seven and Seventy.
"Yea! the night shall cover all; the night shall cover all."


-The Book of Lies
Myrkky sattuu siihen jolla on haava.
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Re: Pantheism

Postby Kavi » Fri May 19, 2017 10:07 pm

Insanus wrote:I think I'm some kind of gnostic dualist, heavily thelemic at least. I think of "everything" as the four letters of Tetragrammaton, everything in the "everything but no more" sense. Everything is an obstacle, everything is a nuisance & therefore everything is also the object of the great work. Nothing as nothing, as beyond, as nowhere is the ideal purpose of it. Nothing as a part of some more total everything eliminates the sole meaning of the word in my opinion.
Vanadís wrote: So via cosmic manifestation God is in all, but also in no-thing, because god is already in potential, where nothing IS, but everything is able to be. Total blackness, call this side Satan if you like. Maybe this is something I can share with anti-cosmics :D
THE PRAYING MANTIS

"Say: God is One." This I obeyed: for a thousand and one times a night for one thousand nights and one did I affirm the Unity.
But "night" only means LAYLAH; and Unity and GOD are not worth even her blemishes.
Al-lah is only sixty-six; but LAYLAH counteth up to Seven and Seventy.
"Yea! the night shall cover all; the night shall cover all."


-The Book of Lies
This was quite interesting, post although it seems I didn't understand even half of "The Praying Mantis".
Layla brought into my mind really intrique story of Layla and Majnoon.
Literally meaning then Night and Madman.
Majnoon is so possessed and intoxicated by the love of Leila that he goes crazy. But there is even more to that, if one wants to read about it more.
As we all know wine, Beloved and lover has been used quite a much in sufi poems.
Night brings interesting aspects to this. I haven't thought about this before.

Rumi said: Whoever is loved is beautiful, but this doesn’t mean that whoever is beautiful is loved.
“There are girls more beautiful than Laila,” they used to tell Majnun. “Let us bring some to you.”
“I do not love Laila for her form,” Majnun would reply. “Laila is like a cup in my hand. I drink wine from that cup. I am in love with that wine.
You only have eyes for the goblet and do not know the wine. A golden goblet studded with precious stones, but containing only vinegar, what use is that to me? An old broken gourd with wine is better in my eyes than a hundred goblets of gold.


What is the meaning behind this, is that we tend to look on external things or to exclude something. To think and love about beautiful cup but not to adore the wine. I guess this might bring us closer to debate over traditional philosophy of christianity where spirit is seen over matter. I have thought that Rumi was monist, which would make more sense to think about the cup and wine together.
How would You interpret this?

Personally I have viewed myself as pantheist. But somehow through paradoxes. If all is one - it seems the One can be found in nothingness and in fullness. One is in complete silence, which is still full of noise. One in Many and Many in One.
Animation serie Rick and Morty on second season tried to view Unity as one singular mind over others, but the point in my opinion is that there has to be still the multitude of voices inside One in order to be something else than totalitarian mind and the opposite would be somekind of hive mind.
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Insanus
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Re: Pantheism

Postby Insanus » Sat May 20, 2017 2:58 am

Kavi wrote:
What is the meaning behind this, is that we tend to look on external things or to exclude something. To think and love about beautiful cup but not to adore the wine. I guess this might bring us closer to debate over traditional philosophy of christianity where spirit is seen over matter. I have thought that Rumi was monist, which would make more sense to think about the cup and wine together.
How would You interpret this?
I would ask Majnun is the wine part of Laila or not. The old player was pretty straight though: "I do not love her for her form" & "she's like a cup in my hand". What is this about? Didn't he just say that he doesn't care about the girl, only about the bliss he experiences?
Myrkky sattuu siihen jolla on haava.
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Re: Pantheism

Postby Kavi » Sat May 20, 2017 11:20 am

Insanus wrote:
Kavi wrote:
What is the meaning behind this, is that we tend to look on external things or to exclude something. To think and love about beautiful cup but not to adore the wine. I guess this might bring us closer to debate over traditional philosophy of christianity where spirit is seen over matter. I have thought that Rumi was monist, which would make more sense to think about the cup and wine together.
How would You interpret this?
I would ask Majnun is the wine part of Laila or not. The old player was pretty straight though: "I do not love her for her form" & "she's like a cup in my hand". What is this about? Didn't he just say that he doesn't care about the girl, only about the bliss he experiences?
I am by no means any expert on this field but what I found out from the tragic story is actually what you seemed to have noticed.
He loves the bliss and not the girl. After hearing that he can't marry and be with the girl he moves to wilderness where by day time recites love poems. Even when his parents die he still continues to stay in the desert. After the husband of Laila dies, he continues to be in the desert eventhough the girl has sent a message that they could finally be together. Only then, when Laila dies will Majnun come out of the wilderness to grieve on the tomb of Laila.

This kind of story definitely brings me an idea that the experience of bliss, which someone might call love was actually out of the touch with reality.
It's not the ideal story about lovers but more of telling about separation from the unity where wine and cup are actually one and the same.

But honestly speaking I have never read any commentaries or books on this subject so everything is only my own speculation :D
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Re: Pantheism

Postby Vanadís » Sat May 20, 2017 12:57 pm

Kavi wrote: This was quite interesting, post although it seems I didn't understand even half of "The Praying Mantis".
The Praying Mantis is poem, which includes some of the basic stuff of Crowley's thoughts about universe: For example god-name Allah contains LA, which in kabbalistic system means all & everything. It's manifestation of God, masculine. While LA means opposite of it nothing & no-being. So the name of god includes creation of universe and withdrawal of it, that is cosmic rythm of coming into being (breathing out) and collapsing (breathing in). Compare this to Shiva's dance and creating & destroying, breathing in and out -> yoga (pranayama).

Ok, back to the poem! Laylah is of course Leila Waddell, who was Crowley's most well known "Scarlet Woman" (taking the role of goddess Babalon in rituals). As Babalon she represents manifestation of Nuit (Dark Goddess, matter behind the stars) and therefore she was before "god", she is not-being, N.O.X. Eternal night. Nuit always "wins" the manifested god/universe, because in the end we are in the darkness again in the womb of Dark Mother.

More hints:
Laylah = night in Arabian.
Crowley himself represented the Beast (Sun, 666, Lion, Tiphareth)
In gematry Lailah = 77 while God ALLH = 66

Let's play another song ;)

Margery Dawn


I love LAYLAH.
I lack LAYLAH.
"Where is the Mystic Grace?" sayst thou?
Who told thee, man, that LAYLAH is not Nuit, and I Hadit?
I destroyed all things; they are reborn in other shapes.
I gave up all for One; this One hath given up its Unity for all?
I wrenched DOG backwards to find GOD; now GOD barks.
Think me not fallen because I love LAYLAH and lack LAYLAH.
I am the Master of the Universe; then give me a heap of straw in a hut, and LAYLAH naked! AMEN.


- Crowley, Book of Lies, Liber CCCXXXIII


I'm sorry if this goes from pantheism towards the ceremonial magic and Kabbalah...
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Insanus
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Re: Pantheism

Postby Insanus » Sat May 20, 2017 1:35 pm

Kavi wrote:
Insanus wrote:
Kavi wrote:
What is the meaning behind this, is that we tend to look on external things or to exclude something. To think and love about beautiful cup but not to adore the wine. I guess this might bring us closer to debate over traditional philosophy of christianity where spirit is seen over matter. I have thought that Rumi was monist, which would make more sense to think about the cup and wine together.
How would You interpret this?
I would ask Majnun is the wine part of Laila or not. The old player was pretty straight though: "I do not love her for her form" & "she's like a cup in my hand". What is this about? Didn't he just say that he doesn't care about the girl, only about the bliss he experiences?
I am by no means any expert on this field but what I found out from the tragic story is actually what you seemed to have noticed.
He loves the bliss and not the girl. After hearing that he can't marry and be with the girl he moves to wilderness where by day time recites love poems. Even when his parents die he still continues to stay in the desert. After the husband of Laila dies, he continues to be in the desert eventhough the girl has sent a message that they could finally be together. Only then, when Laila dies will Majnun come out of the wilderness to grieve on the tomb of Laila.

This kind of story definitely brings me an idea that the experience of bliss, which someone might call love was actually out of the touch with reality.
It's not the ideal story about lovers but more of telling about separation from the unity where wine and cup are actually one and the same.

But honestly speaking I have never read any commentaries or books on this subject so everything is only my own speculation :D
There are of course many possible interpretations. It could be argued that the bliss Majnun experiences is because the girl is such a fine channel,or that the bliss is the innate spiritual nature of all beings (and paradoxically, he loves the girl even more and only ignores the appearances) or that the idea of "truly loving someone in touch with reality" doesn't even mean anything and the way of appreciating God's love in solitude is the highest way to go, or that the wine is actually Majnun's own love towards the girl, or what not. For a true mystic it probably won't even matter that much: love is one love and bliss is one bliss anyway. :D
Myrkky sattuu siihen jolla on haava.

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