Tradition

Convictions, morals, other societies and religions.
Angolmois

Re: Tradition

Post by Angolmois »

Here is an interesting video of Frithjof Schuon expressing his view about syncretism etc.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4btKmBigk3Q
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Nefastos
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Re: Monastic Life

Post by Nefastos »

obnoxion wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:27 pmAnd buildings, most of all church buildings, are but philosophical summaries.

There has been much talk about & around Traditionalism on the forum in the last few days. I have never seriously studied Traditionalist authors, but it seems that some of my thoughts in for example Fosforos came pretty close to some of their ideas. These thoughts of mine were much intensified by the great amount of anguish which mainly came from feelings aroused by... modern achitecture. When I was young, I lived in a small city, and its lack of older grand or pictoresque architecture that I find so comforting & aesthetically uplifting (very much present in the center of Helsinki where I now live) was a source or correspondence of great distress to me. Architectural surroundings are very much our common soul's presentation in any an age.

Later I have been more careful about writing about these kind of things of modern "degeneration", since I think that our Oedipal longing for the days past should be dealt with in a completely different manner. As a great lover of Roman era of Occidental culture, the next hilarious quotation always springs to my mind when this particular subject is discussed:

"Maybe it is also that all phenomena are in circular motion and that customs change like the ages do. The old time was not in every respect better, but also our own has left many spiritual achievements and expressions of noble spirit for the future generations to imitate. However that is, let us continue our honorable competition with our forefathers." – Tacitus: Annales, 3:55 (about year 117 CE)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Angolmois

Re: Monastic Life

Post by Angolmois »

Nefastos wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:03 pm There has been much talk about & around Traditionalism on the forum in the last few days. I have never seriously studied Traditionalist authors, but it seems that some of my thoughts in for example Fosforos came pretty close to some of their ideas.
Although un-orthodox - or should I say heterodox? - I would still link your thought and worldview within the golden thread of (primordial) Tradition, there are so many similarities and correspondences to traditional thought in your writings. As it is said, tradition is not about preservation of the ashes but a kindling of Fire.
Nefastos wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:03 pm These thoughts of mine were much intensified by the great amount of anguish which mainly came from feelings aroused by... modern achitecture. When I was young, I lived in a small city, and its lack of older grand or pictoresque architecture that I find so comforting & aesthetically uplifting (very much present in the center of Helsinki where I now live) was a source or correspondence of great distress to me. Architectural surroundings are very much our common soul's presentation in any an age.
Modern functionalist architecture is horrible. This is why I prefer forests over urban cities - they still have some sense of primordiality compared to the concrete and glass metropolises.
Nefastos wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:03 pm Later I have been more careful about writing about these kind of things of modern "degeneration", since I think that our Oedipal longing for the days past should be dealt with in a completely different manner.
In what way do you think the longing should be dealt with?

There is verily some longing for days gone by in the traditionalist thought, but no one of them have ever proposed that we should "go back in time" in the romantic or backwards sense. It is the spiritual principles that guided our ancestors that are seen as viable and true, not the institutions of forms.
Nefastos wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:03 pm As a great lover of Roman era of Occidental culture, the next hilarious quotation always springs to my mind when this particular subject is discussed:

"Maybe it is also that all phenomena are in circular motion and that customs change like the ages do. The old time was not in every respect better, but also our own has left many spiritual achievements and expressions of noble spirit for the future generations to imitate. However that is, let us continue our honorable competition with our forefathers." – Tacitus: Annales, 3:55 (about year 117 CE)
Yes, well the Romans and the ancestors of Tacitus were already living in the Kali Yuga. But I do agree, there are good things also in modernity although the progress is mostly material combined with a collective spiritual regression. I see one way of connecting hands as finding a solution to the archaic-modern-futuristic thought, taking the best out of both worlds. This is why I consider myself as a Luciferian and not a Traditionalist. Forward is the only way, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater even in this issue.
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Nefastos
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Re: Tradition(alism)

Post by Nefastos »

(Moved from the Monastic Life thread, where I haphazardly touched the subject.)
Boreas wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:53 amAlthough un-orthodox - or should I say heterodox? - I would still link your thought and worldview within the golden thread of (primordial) Tradition, there are so many similarities and correspondences to traditional thought in your writings. As it is said, tradition is not about preservation of the ashes but a kindling of Fire.

Thank you for your beautiful words. But I've understood that Traditionalists are usually at least sceptical, if not openly hostile, towards the universalistically inclined esotericism? Blavatsky shared the idea of the perennial philosophy, but saw no problem collecting fruits from very different trees if that is what works best to kindle (or nurture) the fire, and in this I very much side with her.

Boreas wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:53 amModern functionalist architecture is horrible. This is why I prefer forests over urban cities - they still have some sense of primordiality compared to the concrete and glass metropolises.

You are a true Finn in that. As you know, I am urban & feel at home amidst the stone sculptures of the old culture cities rather than in untamed nature, which I prefer to love from the distance.

Boreas wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:53 amIn what way do you think the longing should be dealt with?

Like I said, I take much of that longing as a psychological, and as such, I try to observe what kind of psychological things make me nostalgic & think that the things that were are better than the things that are. In this forum I have often said that I side with the Freudian idea that much of the human culture is Oedipal in nature, and we are often en masse trying to cope with some personal & cultural traumas, and rather than understanding where the trauma comes, project it into a cultural form. Now I am the first person to say that saying that something is pathological does not actually solve or tell anything. Such an apporach is often just used to say that something is extraordinary, does not belong to the most common profane sensation. Yet we as esotericists must be extra careful not to hide our personal insecurities behind the apparently occult wall of fog.

What could be the touchstone to see when this must be considered, and actions changed accordingly? The eternal touchstone: to see if some approach is actually benevolent and helps the whole. And with this, we come to the problem of the stressed Traditionalist criticism towards the postmodern world. Does it actually help anything to say how bad things are? What is accomplished by saying that things were better before? Even should that be true, the clock can't be turned unless we are Dan Svanö. Only way to reach for something better is to search it from the future. "Future will be ancient days reborn in understanding", at best. The emphasis is in positivity, not in negativity, which is poison for the occult process in almost every phase of the Work.

Boreas wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:53 amI see one way of connecting hands as finding a solution to the archaic-modern-futuristic thought, taking the best out of both worlds. This is why I consider myself as a Luciferian and not a Traditionalist. Forward is the only way, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater even in this issue.

I heartily agree. In the postmodern culture there are many sacred cows (sidenote: I love sacred cows, so maybe I should not try to use this idiom as a pejorative) onto which Traditionalists seem to offer an antidote. The golden way is in the middle. Yet I take it to be extremely important to offer one's open hand first, then criticize, without harsh words if possible, and not the other way around. Why? Our time is like a full scale sociological warfare between all kinds of extremes, which actually make each other more extreme with every verbal missile sent. I think the future generations (hopefully even decades) will find our time's usual form of discussion as comical if not frightening. (It took some time to see this change in the need of cultural atmosphere, after my upbringing by Blavatsky, the human blunderbuss.)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Angolmois

Re: Tradition(alism)

Post by Angolmois »

Nefastos wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:00 pm But I've understood that Traditionalists are usually at least sceptical, if not openly hostile, towards the universalistically inclined esotericism?
There is some divergence in this among the traditionalist thinkers. Guénon was explicit in his rejection of mixing different traditional forms (exoterically), but for example Frithjof Schuon combined Islam, Advaita Vedanta and Red Indian practices with esoteric Mariology. It can be said that traditionalists are universalists in the foundational and principal level, but stress the need to affiliate with a single tradition exoterically. And it is the honoring of local cultures and traditions that also unite theosophists and traditionalists.
Nefastos wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:00 pm Blavatsky shared the idea of the perennial philosophy, but saw no problem collecting fruits from very different trees if that is what works best to kindle (or nurture) the fire, and in this I very much side with her.
This is where I nowadays side with theosophy also instead of the traditionalists. There are dangers in misguided and superficial syncretism, but I see even more problems (of mummification and crystallization) in the following of an orthodox tradition. And there's also this sort of bourgeous conformism in the traditional RHP which I loath. I have tried with all my powers to make myself "a traditionalist proper", considering the paths of Orthodox & Catholic Christianity and traditional Asatru as an exoteric form, but there is simply no way I can fit into these forms for several reasons. And there's also the fact that if adopts an orthodox form simply to fit in or without really believing in the theology, one is not truly searching for the truth and is just deluding oneself. Hence my emphasis on the left hand path and Luciferianism.
Nefastos wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:00 pm You are a true Finn in that. As you know, I am urban & feel at home amidst the stone sculptures of the old culture cities rather than in untamed nature, which I prefer to love from the distance.
Yes. I'm not saying that everything in the city is bad and I'm certainly not advocating some kind of rottenness of all culture and the "return to nature". Cities can be very beautiful and inspiring places, but it is the (post-) modern architecture that I don't like and feel it to be very depressing and soul-killing. To be honest, things are not really that better in the so called "economic forests" that abound nowadays. The desert is everywhere.

Nothing to add to your other points!
Angolmois

Re: Tradition(alism)

Post by Angolmois »

Boreas wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:52 pmAnd there's also this sort of bourgeous conformism in the traditional RHP which I loath.
I have to correct this one like this since I can't seem to edit my post directly. Loathing is a too strong word here, I'd say that it is not good for me. Older people may benefit from this kind of conformism, but for the one who strives for spiritual youth it almost automatically leads to stagnation.
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