(Kashmir) Shaivism

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Heathen_Soul
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(Kashmir) Shaivism

Postby Heathen_Soul » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:31 pm

Nefastos wrote:Welcome, Heathen_Soul! I love Advaita-Vedanta also, & like you, do not see it as a justification for inaction or passivity. That is why my own sympathies shifted even more to the Kashmir Shaivism when it comes to the mystico-symbolical applications of the doctrine, although I consider the Advaita-Vedanta to be a correct foundation of the philosophical metaphysics. In KS, the Unity is seen in the form of the polar God–Goddess -union where neither part, the spiritual transcendence or the feminine halo of magical action, is seen as the higher than the other: they are equal, and both together are our quintessential core.
I have read some KS but found the works I read to be very technical (much like advaita I guess, which is über precise in its use of language). I have taken it to all be about balance, uncertainty and paradox.

Any KS recommendation would be appreciated :(
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Nefastos
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Re: Introductions

Postby Nefastos » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:22 am

Heathen_Soul wrote:I have read some KS but found the works I read to be very technical (much like advaita I guess, which is über precise in its use of language). I have taken it to all be about balance, uncertainty and paradox.


I don't know if it's about uncertainty. So far I have only seen that kind of approach in the worst Shaiva book I have read so far (and even it had some merits), Odier's commentary on Yoga Spandakarika. But balance, freedom (= occult individual possibilities; magic) & paradox is a triad I have seen in that, & it is dear to me. My understanding of Kashmir Shaivism is not scholarly, though, but fragmentary.

Heathen_Soul wrote:Any KS recommendation would be appreciated


"Paratrisika-Vivarana" & "The Aphorisms of Siva: The Siva Sutra with Bhaskara's Commentary, the Varttika", translated & edited by Dyczkowski.

Some time ago we talked about reading Dyzckowski's "The Doctrine of Vibration: An Analysis of the Doctrines and Practices of Kashmir Shaivism" together, but another book was chosen instead. Maybe it could be done here?
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Heathen_Soul
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Re: Introductions

Postby Heathen_Soul » Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:04 pm

Nefastos wrote:
Heathen_Soul wrote:I have read some KS but found the works I read to be very technical (much like advaita I guess, which is über precise in its use of language). I have taken it to all be about balance, uncertainty and paradox.


I don't know if it's about uncertainty.

Heathen_Soul wrote:Any KS recommendation would be appreciated


Some time ago we talked about reading Dyzckowski's "The Doctrine of Vibration: An Analysis of the Doctrines and Practices of Kashmir Shaivism" together, but another book was chosen instead. Maybe it could be done here?
In regards uncertainty I was referring more to not holding any one idea as certain and living with ambiguity. I think humans look for stories to explain experiences etc but it doesnt always means that the stories are fact or Truth. So to prevent living with a dogma, you have to live in that tension of 'not knowing'. If that makes sense?!
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Re: Introductions

Postby Nefastos » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:24 pm

Heathen_Soul wrote:In regards uncertainty I was referring more to not holding any one idea as certain and living with ambiguity.


Ah, OK.

Heathen_Soul wrote:I think humans look for stories to explain experiences etc but it doesnt always means that the stories are fact or Truth.


This interestingly comes back to our recent discussion about Fact and Truth.

In the context of what you said (about stories which might or might not be real) I think that one very important part of Truth is the narrational one. I mean that the human psyche, because it is bound to time & problems of linearity & disconnectedness, needs to intuitively build up myths (= reach for the archetypes!) in order to make sense of the world. In a way, the narrative – or a mythic story – is a bridge between the truth and a mere fact, between the spirit (Meaning) and matter (which in itself is meaningless).

Shaivism, because it is "immanent transcendentialism", seeks to break up the linear tradition of the old story, but of course, it can only do that with the aid of the new stories; that is, by building up different approaches. It cannot take away the incarnated mind's basic approach of seeing the world as formal & linear construction, but it can shake it up a bit, like poetry or drugs might.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Heathen_Soul
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Re: (Kashmir) Shaivism

Postby Heathen_Soul » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:25 pm

I'll have to check out that thread.

I agree with what you say and would add that Mystics (those who have had subjective shifts or peak experiences, whether permanent or not) have tried to express this Experience in words and so often use the commonly understood framework of the time to express that Truth. This can only obviously lead to an approximate understanding and more often a total misunderstanding by those less mystically inclined. In some ineffable way the Mystic 'Knows', while the rest speculate and build systems, cosmologies etc

From my limited 'peak' experiences I would say only poetry comes close to pointing at that Truth or maybe, like KS, works that comfortably hold paradox and generally confound (or are nonconformist or heretical).

If it's mainstream, it ain't the Truth! :)
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Re: (Kashmir) Shaivism

Postby Jiva » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:35 pm

This is a really interesting topic, as the contrast between Kashmiri Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta really interests me, namely that rather than the physical world being considered an illusion it is instead essentially real as part of the universal consciousness. However, perhaps bizarrely, I first discovered Kashmiri Shaivism ages ago after researching Goethe and discovering his enjoyment of the Sanskrit poet Kālidāsa who is, aside from Wikipedia, my only introduction to this subject.
'Oh Krishna, restless and overpowering, this mind is overwhelmingly strong; I think we might as easily gain control over the wind as over this.'
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Re: (Kashmir) Shaivism

Postby obnoxion » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:44 am

Although the topic is (Kashmir) Shaivism, but, as it begun with a remark on Advaita Vedanta, I suppose it is ok to bring up the topic of Dattatreya. I have really gotten into the Avadhuta Gita (of which one can find an excellent version from Wikisources: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translat ... /Chapter_1), that is, "The Song of the Free". I think Dattatreya offers an excellent point of ingress for a Westerner who is serious about the Tantric Path, but has no access to living lineage:

1- Dattatreya embodies the unity of Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma as Trimurti, and the Ideal of non-duality.
2 - Dattatreya had no human Guru, but his 24 Gurus were animals, forces of nature and some very everydayish people
3- In the Dattareya Tradition I find none of the "dark side fethisism" that I find so banal in most forms of Western LHP, but Dattatreya is nevertheless considerd Adiguru of authentic Left Hand Path.
4. Dattatreya is considered a "Honey Bee Yogi", which means that his traditoin embraces syncretism.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.

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