Greco-Roman Mythology

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Jiva
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Greco-Roman Mythology

Postby Jiva » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:17 am

So we have threads where various mythologies are discussed but none where perhaps the two major European mythologies have been discussed in any depth: namely the Greek and Roman mythologies, which are of course closely interlinked. Both have much more available sources than Scandinavian or Finnish, for example, but still I must confess I barely know anything aside from the very basics.

One that has stayed with me though is the myth of Narcissus and Nemesis, which I consider similar to the story of Yahweh and Satan, especially as represented in the Book of Job.

In short, Narcissus is totally enamoured with himself and despises people who love him. After ignoring the advances of Echo – who withdraws from life as a result – Nemesis, as a personification of justice, condemns Narcissus to unknowingly fall in love with his own reflection in a pool of water and to ultimately drown.

Yahweh, in the Book of Job, seems to totally despise Job by never directly speaking to him or addressing his questions, but merely boast about his own unrelated achievements. Therefore, Job is ignored while Yahweh is enamoured with himself. Furthermore, if Jung’s interpretation is followed, Satan as the accusatory Nemesis initiates the entire episode which ultimately results in Yahweh’s incarnation as Jesus, an immersion or sorts in the material world and accordingly his first personal experience of suffering and death.

I also find it interesting that Nemesis is considered to have predated Zeus and acts as justice. As Satan is “prince of this world” it is perhaps worth considering that Sophia or wisdom existed before Yahweh created the world and could therefore be referred to as the ‘queen on this world’. As stated, it is in this world that Yahweh could be considered to have drowned by focussing on himself, something that eventually caused a guilt he deemed necessary to placate by incarnating as Jesus and personally experiencing suffering and death. Yet this is more an attempt at his own absolution than anyone else's.
'Oh Krishna, restless and overpowering, this mind is overwhelmingly strong; I think we might as easily gain control over the wind as over this.'
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Re: Greco-Roman Mythology

Postby Fomalhaut » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:07 am

When it comes to Greco-Roman Mythology, I have tons of things to share... But first things first. I was born in Izmit, in northern Turkey. It is the biggest industrial city in Turkey nowadays.

Nicomedia (Greek: Νικομήδεια, modern İzmit in Turkey) was founded in 712/11 BC as a Megarian colony and, in early Antiquity, was called Astacus (lobster).[1] After being destroyed by Lysimachus,[2] it was rebuilt by Nicomedes I of Bithynia in 264 BC under the name of Nicomedia, and has ever since been one of the most important cities in northwestern Asia Minor. Hannibal came to Nicomedia in his final years and committed suicide in nearby Libyssa (Diliskelesi, Gebze). The historian Arrian was born there. Nicomedia was the metropolis of Bithynia under the Roman Empire, and Diocletian made it the eastern capital city of the Roman Empire in 286 when he introduced the Tetrarchy system. Nicomedia remained as the eastern (and most senior) capital of the Roman Empire until co-emperor Licinius was defeated by Constantine the Great at the Battle of Chrysopolis (Üsküdar) in 324. Constantine mainly resided in Nicomedia as his interim capital city for the next six years, until in 330 he declared the nearby Byzantium (which was renamed Constantinople (present-day Istanbul)) the new capital. Constantine died in a royal villa in the vicinity of Nicomedia in 337. Owing to its position at the convergence of the Asiatic roads leading to the new capital, Nicomedia retained its importance even after the foundation of Constantinople. However, a major earthquake on 24 August 358 caused extensive devastation to Nicomedia and was followed by a fire which completed the catastrophe. - Wikipedia

It is told that while Nicomedes I. was doing an offering on the altar in Astacos, he realised that there is a snake and an eagle approaching. Then he decides to follow the eagle and the snake. Nicomedes I . and his men follows the eagle and the snake until the other side of the gulf and realises that the eagle has hunted the snake. He sees this as a sign and asks for building the city of Nicomedia to the other side of the gulf where city of Izmit is located nowadays.

I remember from my childhood, there were ancient ruins near our first house, I was going to touch and trying to understand the Latin letters on them, my blood was boiling and i was getting excited each time i visited the places. I have always felt more like a Greco-Roman than my actual identity. Who knows, may be I was one in one of my incarnations :)

It is so unfortunate that nowadays government of Turkey does not care about ancient history (this might be on purpose that they do not want people to know much about pre-islamic era of Turkey) and thus government does not grant much money for archeologists. It is told that the palace of Diocletian among with many great ancient historical ruins reside under the industrial areas of the city which makes them impossible to be searched.
Last edited by Wyrmfang on Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greco-Roman Mythology

Postby RaktaZoci » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:22 pm

Interesting piece of history, fra Fomalhaut. A good read.

For some reason this topic brings to my mind the discussion on the Astra group concerning islam. This kind of behaviour seems strange to me that you mention about the goverment. Could they think that if people would get to know the history more then would all suddently abandon the major religion and start an uprising or something? This feels like a most unlikely outcome in a civilized society.

Sorry for the off-topic though, Jiva! ;)
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Re: Greco-Roman Mythology

Postby Fomalhaut » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:28 pm

RaktaZoci wrote:Interesting piece of history, fra Fomalhaut. A good read.

For some reason this topic brings to my mind the discussion on the Astra group concerning islam. This kind of behaviour seems strange to me that you mention about the goverment. Could they think that if people would get to know the history more then would all suddently abandon the major religion and start an uprising or something? This feels like a most unlikely outcome in a civilized society.

Sorry fot the off-topic though, Jiva! ;)
Thank you, Brother. I am glad to hear you like to read it. Even though 99% of the population is muslim, Turkey has been a secular country since its foundation (for 92 years). However there has been same government on power for last 13-14 years and they want to tear down what Modern Turkey represents. And they are being very successful doing it. May be it not about people's getting know the history more and they would suddenly abandon Islam. My estimation is that they do not want anything more of pre-islamic era of Turkey. Though there has already been found many ancient ruins and cities found all over Turkey for last 100 years.

A few great examples of ancient sites from Greco-Roman times:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspendos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Termessos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side
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Re: Greco-Roman Mythology

Postby Jiva » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:04 pm

It looks like me and Fomalhaut are approaching this from different directions :P. I’ll continue with mythological stuff…

Tiresias is the Greek god that I find most interesting. The basic story is that Tiresias was walking on Mount Cyllene when he encountered two entwined snakes and stamped on them, thereby angering Hera who promptly turned him into a woman and beginning his/her various – and often disastrous – interactions with key members of the Greek pantheon. I view this as a reference to separating the snakes of the Caduceus and descending into the material world.

Seven years later he is again walking in the mountains and finds another pair of intertwined snakes which, depending on the version of the myth, he either hits them again or safely ignores. Regardless of which course of action, he is restored by Hera to be a man, although I prefer the version where he finally allows the snakes to form the Caduceus. After this, although he is nominally a man again, he could be considered hermaphroditic in a way as he has experience of both sexes.

Stories vary, but at some point during all of this Tiresias’ sight was removed as a punishment by one of the gods, yet was compensated with either divine sight or hearing to become an oracle or an auger respectively. This continues after his death and relocation to the Fields of Asphodel in the underworld, where those who led ordinary lives reside for eternity, although Tiresias is exceptionally allowed to retain his abilities and is obviously the greatest resident.

In some ways s/he resembles Loki, although without the same obvious importance to cosmic events. He is not of godly lineage, he changes sex and has children, serves as a foil for various key gods, all the while personifying liminality. He therefore has understanding of the polarities of man and woman, gods and humanity, blindness and sight, the present and the future, and also the Earthly world and Hades. However, while Loki arguably starts with a sizeable degree of gnosis, Tiresias’ comparatively humble beginnings suggest this is otherwise in his case. Instead, his progressive initiations characterise a vertical, mortal progression through life and death, rather than a horizontal path of an immortal.
'Oh Krishna, restless and overpowering, this mind is overwhelmingly strong; I think we might as easily gain control over the wind as over this.'
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Re: Greco-Roman Mythology

Postby Nefastos » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:51 am

The Greco-Roman mythology is much like the Biblical one for me... They're so much in the culture and the air we breath that even without ever actually studying them per se they form quite an extensive part of the mind's imagery & the subconscious.
Jiva wrote:Tiresias is the Greek god that I find most interesting.


Yeah, same thing here. Especially when I was focusing on kundalinî working with the erotic centers & the polarization of the archetypical genders in human being, I stumbled on him (her) regularly. Later too. A mystery figure for sure.

Speaking of genders, it's extremely interesting to note how male-centered the later cultures, e.g. Greco-Roman, were in contrast to the former, more matriarchal and "primitive" (actually, just older) cultures/religions. Even the Greeks were quite obsessed with machismo of their Zeus (Jupiter) it seems, and the Romans made that worse plus added extra worship to Mars (Ares). The two most masculine forces in the pantheon were giving birth to our monotheistic father figure of God, making his Solar identity a very manly & even warlike one, contrary to what the new god's gospels actually taught. Taken from a cultural & historical viewpoint, thinking that with the archetypical principles (seven celestial divinities which basically form a harmony of opposites) that has created, pardon me, a fucked up situation.

Also interesting is how the Satanist answer to that has been to turn on backwards to the Titanic times of Cronos (Saturn i.e. Satan) & sideways to Aphrodite (Venus i.e. Lucifer). Cronos-Rhea's primal chaos & night and the Morning Star's lucid light are necessarily something deconstructing the male dominance in culture, monotheism & also esotericism.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Greco-Roman Mythology

Postby Cancer » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:21 pm

Am I right if I say that symbolically Azazel could pretty much be replaced by Prometheus? I mean, aren't their stories and mythological functions basically the same?

I came to think about this correspondence when I told my mother that I'd joined the SoA. She was fine with it and even interested, but said that she "didn't like the sound" of the name Azazel. I told her that Prometheus camps (a secular alternative for confirmation camps of the Finnish church) could be called Azazel camps considering the name's symbolism, and that likewise SoA could be the Star of Prometheus if Greco-Roman mythology was in the position that Biblical mythology has in our culture.

Does someone know better than me? And why is there such a different sound to the name Azazel in the first place? Is it just because it's from a Judeo-Christian version of the same myth, or is there something intristically different in the myth of Azazel itself? Maybe the stark good-and-evil dualism that's absent from Antique mythology?
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Re: Greco-Roman Mythology

Postby Nefastos » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:04 am

I think brother Obnoxion gave a very good answer to this in the old radio interview of his. He said that we could speak of Prometheus instead of Azazel, "but we are not trying to have it spiritually easy for ourselves". That is, using Satanic names keeps to the myth some difference of depth or heaviness.

I think the divinities in the different cultures are and are not the same. There are some who have come culturally so close to each other that they can be seen as practically identical, like the Greco-Roman pantheon. But even if the esoterical symbolism is universal and therefore valid in essence – which is what I definitely believe –, the gods with forms and names are tied to those forms and names, which become like their avatars in culture. Cf. human being's Ego > personality. We could say the cultural mythical figures (gods & heroes) are like representations of the presentations which are the archetypes pressed in human mind (from above, claims the occultist: just the representations come from below).

But we are free to use always new representations, I think that is one of the lectures of our postmodern age of hermeneutical challenges. So, in some situation we might actually lead someone astray from the truth by calling that truth in its true name, if our listener has wrong associations concerning that name (!). Another good example might be Jesus. He is not just a divinity, a heros or a demigod, but a whole pantheon of different gods all by himself. Almost every person thinks of a different kind of Jesus, and if most of them associate him very differently than I, I think it's safer to say I am anti-Christian, even if I revere Jesus... Monotheism really has its issues!
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Greco-Roman Mythology

Postby Cancer » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:30 pm

Nefastos wrote:I think brother Obnoxion gave a very good answer to this in the old radio interview of his. He said that we could speak of Prometheus instead of Azazel, "but we are not trying to have it spiritually easy for ourselves". That is, using Satanic names keeps to the myth some difference of depth or heaviness.
Yeah. It's sometimes hard to believe how deeply our culture still involves Christian mythology, and especially how clearly this can be seen even in individuals (like pretty much everyone on this forum) who are concious of the correspondences between different mythologies. Even when the similarity is acknowledged, speaking of Prometheus instead of Azazel would be totally lame, and without doubt more acceptable socially. This in turn would destroy a part of SoA's idea (as I've argued elswhere), the "shock" of Satanism, its cultural connection to darkness and fear. The names may be swhichable, but they are not meaningless.
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Re: Greco-Roman Mythology

Postby Insanus » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:31 am

The different punishments Azazel & Prometheus receive are an important thing to take into account. Prometheus is chained to a rock & pecked by eagle; Azazel is buried beneath rocks into eternal darkness until he is thrown into the fire: these are symbolic paths of devotion.
Prometheus is saved later by Heracles, Azazel is doomed forever. The formula of first being buried, then being unable to see light & then being thrown into flames goes through mortification (Hanged Man), Dark Night of the Soul (eternity as timelessness, Binah) and the endless torment of energy, (Chockmah).

EDIT: On the surface, this devotedness is probably what creates the "shock-value" of satanism.
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