TOTBL/MLO

Convictions, morals, other societies and religions.
Spinos
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Re: TOTBL/MLO

Post by Spinos »

Hello everyone,

I am a follower of the Current 218 since late 2008 and I will try to answer some of your questions. I work primarily in the Necrosophic Current 182 as presented in the Liber Falxifer I & II by the T.F.C.
Insanus wrote:Just to be clear:
TOTBL = Temple of the Black Light
MLO = Misanthropic Luciferian Order (old name for the same group)
No. The TOTBL once existed within the MLO.
Seeker666 wrote:how does their tradition compare to ours? just as a side by side comparison not better or worse.
Short answer, it does not. While many occult movements might be comparable, the followers of 218 make a very sharp distinction between form and Essence. For example, the Naamah of the Current 218 can therefore only be worked with through the ritual practice of that same tradition and what you meet will differ greatly from what you might reach within other systems and settings. We might all perhaps be refered to as occultists, however to me the difference is as great as that between a buddhist monk and a priest.
Insanus wrote:Makes me feel like the point is to glorify necrophilous passions & that the religious feeling is more important than the goal of cosmic dissolution itself. Wikipedia mentioned they teach "extreme militant nihilism". What is this extremity and how is it important?
I can only give you a recommendation towards the actual publications instead of wikipedia to base such "feelings" on, lest your "feelings" might be mistaken for "the fear of that which you don't understand". Within 218/182 practicing necrophilia would break unforgivable taboos as well as being counter-productive initiatory wise, which brings us to the second part of your post, what might be seen by spectators concerning the breaking of the bonds to this world is what some perceive as "extreme militant nihlism". Practicing any "philias" for their own sake is, from our perspective, naturally counter-productive to what we strife to achieve, as it is binding.
Fomalhaut wrote:There had been relevant answers given related to this subject in other topics. To give an example, I would like to quote from the post of fra Nefastos on "Anti-Cosmic Philosophy in Satanism" topic:

Quote:
If one believes in karma, i.e. energetical bonds created by mind, there is no point trying to destroy mankind by force. Even if we destroyed the whole planet, the real psychic bonds would be there, even more than ever. The true "heaviest matter" keeping the soul imprisoned is emotional and intellectual, not physical. (This will be explained in the book Argarizim, now available only in Finnish.)

Because of this, that "literal destruction of mankind" we are after is the one that can only be accomplished by ascension, that is, by finding release from earthly existence by understanding it totally, not by ripping oneself or others out of it by force.

This is why Gnosticism has that particular name: Gnostics believed in the dualistic strife (spirit rising against matter) in the cosmos that is fundamentally monistic - a paradox, there. But even Gnostics believed the way to do is by gnosis: the spiritual knowledge. The use of violence - spiritual, astral or physical - to create perfect anticosmic night is doomed to fail, because the occult bondage ("karma") will be left even if the whole planet is destroyed. If there would be no such karma, there would be no reincarnation, and without reincarnation, anti-cosmicist's job would be easy as pie: just to kill oneself & to find annihilation that easily. Sadly that's not how it works.
This Nefastos you quote clearly does not subscribe to the teachings of forms and Essences. My truth is not his truth, whatever he might have written in his book, to each their own reality, so to speak. I personally believe that mankind was the demiurgs "crown of creation", created in his image in his attempt at self-glorification, thus being a mirror of all his weakness and his obsessions, thus in fighting mankind and one's own humanity one might find the Keys needed for Ascension. As above so below, some might say. There are Points that one might touch upon in conscious acts of violence, again our ways are not your ways.
Jiva wrote:I'm not sure what you mean in the first part, but I do agree with you to an extent regarding religious feeling. Most publications of the TotBL and related organisations devote the majority of their space to rituals. I've no problem with rituals and so on, but I'd prefer to have some sort of more developed philosophical position, although one could say that these rituals – which are fairly explicit in their intention – are designed to foster the over-riding philosophy by a total ceremonial immersion.
The more recent publication goes more into depth with the Chaosophy of 218, however I strongly suspect that non-practitioners will gain naught but an oddity for their library by acquiring it. Practice is the way.
Jiva wrote:I was going to refer to Wyrmfang's post in that thread . But yeah, as Nefastos mentioned in that quote, I don't subscribe to their basically Gnostic black/white views. However, I do think that the supposed violence of the TotBL is exaggerated somewhat. Sure, there is some which some members/guests may object to, but not a huge amount. The primary example I can think of is animal sacrifice, the instructions of which state that it “must therefore be conducted with the greatest of respect and care for the animal so offered” (The Book of Sitra Achra, p.306). Another is by cutting oneself to use one's blood as part of a ritual, which is stated in the context of only acquiring a few drops.

I'm not especially sure how to view the confrontational, spiritual violence in their rituals. Violence is often used in mythological contexts as a purely symbolic device, perhaps also during rituals.
Yes, outside the context of personal reasons (I love animals) there are spiritual reasons why not to spoil the sacrifice with stress or pain, I view it primarily as giving life and only secondary as taking. I personally under-go a period of bonding with the animal a week before the ritual to also include a part of my ego as the sacrifice, I cant speak for none other than myself but I highly doubt any practitioner of the Current 218 take any delight in the ritual slaughter of animals, it's something that is done purely out of necessity. Our own blood is given for other reasons in other contexts.
Kenazis wrote:I was very interested on TOBL/MLO few years back and I read their publications still, but what bugs me is that their aim is somewhat opposite than the Star of Azazel. While SoA aims for the uniting the paths etc. ToBL openly promotes violent activities against "others" and sees themselves as "the only ones that are right". To me this seems like an extreme answer to christianity (and other "Right" paths) a la "You follow only White God and you think you are only ones that knows, so we follow only Black Anti-God and no-one knows the truth, but us." ...still I think they got some very good and interesting points and theories.
Again, there is no value in comparing the path of the "Star of Azazel" with the path of the Current 218. In my tradition creation is the world of white darkness and we achieve the 1-1=0 by bringing the impulses of the Black Light here through our Work, by evening the scales.
Seeker666 wrote:VERY much agreed. for a tradition centered around supposedly dissolving the "clay-born ego" they sure are elitist!

I never liked traditions that claimed to be the "one true path" because that is bullshit. there are many paths to the divine... I still like some of the points they make however... and their mythology/lore is inspiring.
Naturally, if one believes that the very few contain a Spark of Divinity and the majority lacks this, and one strife to make that Spark into a Great Fire then you might understand why those perceived as "spiritless" have very little to no value. Also please see my earlier answer to Fomalhaut concerning mankind.

"Bullshit" to you perhaps, I personally believe that there is but one True Path to Divinity and that is the Essence of 218. What's divine for you is not divine for me, and vice versa.

If you cannot see yourself going "that way" anymore you never really walked there.
Heith wrote:I think it's rather questionable to take this to mean that they actually do treat the animals with "care and respect". What does that even mean? It's mentioned on a piece of paper somewhere. It does not make it so.

I am extremely suspicious about this sort of thing. I think it is fundamentally so wrong that I have nothing but utter contempt to societies and persons that suggest that such a lowly act would be required, desirable or somehow ok. And for some reason I do not believe that TOTBL (or any society that would promote this sort of stunts) are people who grow their own food, and are able to give those animals a decent (stress-free, painless and quick) ending when the time for that comes. I suspect the animals they would pick for this sort of "ritual" wouldn't even be something they would eat.
With risk for repeating myself, even in a theoretical case where an operator for some strange reason really hates the animal to be given it would still be sacrificed swiftly with care and respect as to not spoil the sacrifice with pain, trauma or stress. I prefer one swift stroke with a heavy machete. Believe it or not but personally I grew up on a farm where we had hens and roosters and on Sundays we beheaded a chick or two solely for eating. I do not respect strong opinions on animal sacrifice unless they come from a vegan, those who wear leather jackets or eat hamburgers cause trauma to the animals, everyone knows where meat comes from and worse so an act when done uncaring and indirect, in my book.
I do not believe eating to be of a higher value than my spiritual practice.
Kenazis wrote:bit an offtopic, but about religious animal sacrifice that some authors keep in high respect...I think that when you think killing animals is some holy act of sacrifice to God or Satan or whatever, you quite don't grasp what spirituality, sacrifice or magical powers really are about.
Not in the west perhaps... Animal sacrifice is part of most rural or ATR traditions in the world. In Asian Witchcraft, Hoodoo, Santeria, Quimbanda, Vudou... Perhaps they also "quite don't grasp what spirituality, sacrifice or magical powers really are about."?
Fact is most magicians in the world practice animal sacrifice and know why it is important (In many ways I believe the west is a protected workshop) however it's really not the oddity people want to make of it. The teachings of the ToTBL have been manifested by people who are also involved in ATR practice like Quimbanda and my guess is that the practice of animal sacrifice comes from there.
Seeker666 wrote:I do believe blood is the key to the gates of Qlippoth. But not the blood of some other creature.
The kingdom of qlippoth is within you. Your blood is its key. An always remember there is as much power in a single drop spilled In reverence as there is in gallons spilled in ego.
Our Kliffot is not your "Qlippoth", again forms and Essences, because names in themselves are nothing, it's about Charge. Unless your practicing 218 through one of it's lines of practice your doing something else than what we do, and this is important to remember, I believe, also for your own growth into your own tradition.
Nefastos wrote:Our great Finnish occultist Pekka Ervast (1875-1934) wrote in one his letters:

"In the practical yoga we must understand that the actual kâma rupa i.e. the desire body is in one's blood, and is not a body in the formal sense of the word. In the formal sense there is no other body than the said etheric body [linga sharîra], although we must also speak of other kinds of vehicles." (Epistle 12)
I do not see how your great finnish occultist Pekka's views on yoga has anything to do with the practices of 218. Occultism is not occultism, contrary to popular belief.

...

I will be monitoring this thread and will be happy to further discuss the subjects and try my very best to answer the questions some of you might have regarding the teachings of the Current 218, but I would sincerely prefer to do so in a more worthy and mature tone than the one that has been governing this thread prior to my arrival.

Hail Lucifer!
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Nefastos
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Re: TOTBL/MLO

Post by Nefastos »

First of all, thank you Spinos for contributing in the forum! There are many people who are at the same time interested in both the Star of Azazel and your ideology, the current 218.

It is indeed good we can discuss these things here & give people possibility to make the choice for, as you said, these are two traditions that are not possible to wholly unite, as far as I understand. But the Star of Azazel is about "to spiritually unite forms of esotericism, which to this day are seen as opposed to each other" (according to our constitution), so where some same principles can be found, we are eager to notice them & emphasize them, not so much the differences. As you said, to each their own reality. We can't, nor shouldn't, try to convert or criticize as much as understand & respect. That is part of the credo of SOA, which seeks to unite the Right Hand Path's & the Left Hand Path's best ideals together in the ultimate amalgam of Truth.

Spinos wrote:This Nefastos you quote clearly does not subscribe to the teachings of forms and Essences.


If you wish to elaborate this, I am willing to discuss. If not, that's fine too. For:

Spinos wrote:...again our ways are not your ways.

Spinos wrote:I do not see how your great finnish occultist Pekka's views on yoga has anything to do with the practices of 218. Occultism is not occultism, contrary to popular belief.


This thread advanced to talk about the meaning of blood. My quote from Ervast (and it's not his idea alone) was about "the Legion" living, and actually being, in one's blood.

Spinos wrote:but I would sincerely prefer to do so in a more worthy and mature tone than the one that has been governing this thread prior to my arrival.


I think I understand what you mean here, and I agree we should we quite polite here. But I also understand my fellow brethren's & our guests' slight irritation, for the tone in which one often sees statements given by the followers of the ideology herein discussed can be quite haughty & given in authoritative way. Such is not a great way to stimulate "worthy and mature tone" in the readers. I have been told some times that the Star or Azazel's philosophy is false while the current 218 is praiseworthy, so please understand if people symphatizing with the former feel some antipathy against those who have made such bold accusations. I think they can be forgiven for their slight loss of temper under the circumstances; I have seen much worse talk from the current 218's supporters against us.

So, let us be polite & respectful here, & see what we can learn from each other.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Jiva
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Re: TOTBL/MLO

Post by Jiva »

Thank you for your post and in advance for any further ones. The insight is appreciated.

Well, I would say some comparison is possible. While the forms placed on things may be different, the underlying essence could be the same or similar. The God of one individual's tradition may be another's Devil; the form is different, the essence the same or similar. Similarly, definitions of things like Qliphoth are all individual to a degree, but are all ultimately derived from a trait of Jewish mysticism that makes them roughly mutually intelligible ideas.

Related to the above, I've previously said that I see a strong similarity between modern anti-cosmic belief and the old Christian gnostics, Cathars etc. Another aspect that I think has some correspondences is the 1-1=0 formula and, for example, the Advaitic belief of Brahman differentiated into Atman, where Brahman could be considered the 0, Atman the 1 while the subtraction could represent becoming enlightened and the dissolution of the Maya of creation that leads back to the 0. The method by which people attempt this is obviously going to be different: the total rejection of creation e.g. extreme Cathar perfects, or total acceptance of the world's impurities e.g. Aghori antinomianism, present two extreme examples.

The issue of animal sacrifices is particularly interesting to me as, after all, we are named after a sacrificial animal. And actually, it seems you use animal sacrifices in a similar way to the Biblical sacrificial goat. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think this maybe represents a fundamental difference between our philosophies, similar in context to the examples above. I would also say that just because many other traditions – maybe even the majority – practice animal sacrifice, this isn't in itself a reason to adopt it and definitely doesn't provide a satisfactory justification for it.

I also think there's a contradiction of sorts between saying one should read TotBL and TFC literature to understand the philosophy and then say that people who don't actively practice their contents won't understand the philosophy. Personally, I consider the majority of my insight into anti-cosmic philosophy to be derived from Vexior's Gullveigarbok, which necessitates a background in Scandinavian mythology to understand. So, with this in mind, the following confused me a bit:
Spinos wrote:Naturally, if one believes that the very few contain a Spark of Divinity and the majority lacks this, and one strife to make that Spark into a Great Fire then you might understand why those perceived as "spiritless" have very little to no value. Also please see my earlier answer to Fomalhaut concerning mankind.
If everything in the cosmos is created from an anti-cosmic realm, surely then everything contains a "Spark of Divinity"?
'Oh Krishna, restless and overpowering, this mind is overwhelmingly strong; I think we might as easily gain control over the wind as over this.'
obnoxion
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Re: TOTBL/MLO

Post by obnoxion »

Spinos wrote: I personally under-go a period of bonding with the animal a week before the ritual to also include a part of my ego as the sacrifice.
This must be a very demanding practice. I suppose most people wouldn't be able to perform it. You must be an extraordinary character, and that commands respect. But I cannot believe that killing anything would be necessary for spiritul practice. So why kill if it is not necessary?

Yet I think it can be quite necessary for many to kill for food. Some times the life of men might be in danger by starvation. But not being able to kill animals will not hinder anyone's spiritual life. I say this is a fact, not a matter of opinion.

From your message I can see there are at least two fundamental differences between your practice and mine:
Spinos wrote:I personally believe that there is but one True Path to Divinity and that is the Essence of 218.
It certainly is not. There are many paths to Divinity. And should there be only one, then how shoud it be the most modern thing imaginable? I mean, your practice is one of the most recent things in the history or religion.
Spinos wrote:Naturally, if one believes that the very few contain a Spark of Divinity and the majority lacks this, and one strife to make that Spark into a Great Fire then you might understand why those perceived as "spiritless" have very little to no value.
All is Spirit. If there is some spark that few have and others lack, making those others meaningless, then what you are doing is fundamentally different from Vodou, Quimbanda and other similar traditions.

But as you so truly said, my ways are not your ways. I can accept that.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
Spinos
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Re: TOTBL/MLO

Post by Spinos »

Nefastos wrote:First of all, thank you Spinos for contributing in the forum! There are many people who are at the same time interested in both the Star of Azazel and your ideology, the current 218.

It is indeed good we can discuss these things here & give people possibility to make the choice for, as you said, these are two traditions that are not possible to wholly unite, as far as I understand. But the Star of Azazel is about "to spiritually unite forms of esotericism, which to this day are seen as opposed to each other" (according to our constitution), so where some same principles can be found, we are eager to notice them & emphasize them, not so much the differences. As you said, to each their own reality. We can't, nor shouldn't, try to convert or criticize as much as understand & respect. That is part of the credo of SOA, which seeks to unite the Right Hand Path's & the Left Hand Path's best ideals together in the ultimate amalgam of Truth.
Thank you, good to be here.

We believe others have the right to practice in whatever way they prefer, however within our practice we follow Tradition and never mix in unrelated elements unless they fully harmonize on a deeper level with the different aspects of our work.
Nefastos wrote:I think I understand what you mean here, and I agree we should we quite polite here. But I also understand my fellow brethren's & our guests' slight irritation, for the tone in which one often sees statements given by the followers of the ideology herein discussed can be quite haughty & given in authoritative way. Such is not a great way to stimulate "worthy and mature tone" in the readers. I have been told some times that the Star or Azazel's philosophy is false while the current 218 is praiseworthy, so please understand if people symphatizing with the former feel some antipathy against those who have made such bold accusations. I think they can be forgiven for their slight loss of temper under the circumstances; I have seen much worse talk from the current 218's supporters against us.
There are alot of idiots pretending to belong to the Current 218 all over the various places of the internet, facebook for example, the ToTBL even released an official statement concerning the matter, I'll quote,

"7.2. 2012 - Official Announcement from TOTBL-218

The website of the Temple of the Black Light and the material shared through it have served its purpose and as that website and the outer teachings offered through it attracted too many people of the kind that we rather would have repelled the website does not serve any purpose any more.

The teachings of the Current 218 will from now on only be spread via different printed publications and we shall remove our Work from the Internet in order to place more focus on the actual Spiritual Practices benefiting the true followers of the Path.

It is therefore our wish that our Work and our "copyright" be respected and that no unsanctioned websites or Facebook pages be created in our name. We hope that those who actually and truly follow the 218 Current and respect the Chaos-Gnostic Tradition aid in the enforcing of this our expressed will and treat any and all imposters accordingly.

We have never had nor will we ever have a Facebook, Myspace or any other social media page and all such pages created by outsiders will only mislead seekers and counteract the current strategy of the Temple, whatever the actual intentions of the creators of such pages may be.

We wish for the students and followers of the Current 218 the Empowerments and Illuminations of the Black Light and urge them all to be discrete, careful, mindful and ever watchful.

Temple of the Black Light – 218
"

These "people" claiming to be involved while neglecting this official statement should not be confused with students or practitioners of 218 but are instead nothing but confused youth or imposters with aim to confuse others) that on false grounds, and for all the wrong reasons, wants to get attention. To my knowledge there has never been any statement from anyone within the tradition that has either criticized or praised the Star of Azazel.

On the subject of "unwanted support" I'd also like to quote the only existing interview with N.A-A.218, Magister Templi of T.F.C. (http://www.ixaxaar.com/218-interview-2.html)

22. The T.F.C. is connected to a Current of Gnostic Luciferianism (218) and Qayin can be seen as the First Satanist/Luciferian. However, the noble spiritual goals and complex sorcerous workings within your tradition deviate greatly from the generic, vulgar Satanism often encountered, I wonder therefore how you actually relate to the label of "Satanism" and do you think it is descriptive enough of the Path you represent?

Well, with the passing of the years it became less and less fruitful to label one’s own Path with terms such as “Satanism”, even though we indeed do venerate and serve the Cause of Satan/Lucifer/Samael.

The Americanization of “Satanism” and occultism in general has made a mockery of all that could be relevant and potent within such systems of spiritual antinomianism and as such we have nothing in common with the most often atheistic and materialistic vulgarity sold to the blind under the guise of “Satanism” or “Luciferianism”.

Another factor contributing to our unwillingness to become linked to any form of vulgar “Satanism” is the very unwelcome “support” that is forced upon different relevant branches of the Path of Satan-Lucifer by misguided youth obsessed by “metal music”. Such childish misuse of sacred symbols, sigils and formulae that should be reserved solely for spiritual practices is another reason for why it is a good idea to distant one’s self from the circus that is called “Satanism”.

Those who Know and Serve the Adversary of the Demiurge will of course always remain and endure, for such opposition is the very essence of the Bloodline of the Serpent, but it becomes more and more counterproductive to allow the Holy Work to become falsely associated with any aspect of the crude idiocy of American charlatans and the profanity of weak-minded and misguided youth.

An additional reason for why one needs to separate our Work from the majority of that which has been labelled as “Satanism” is also the fact that our spiritual goals in actuality are opposed to almost all forms of Western “Left Hand Path” systems, as our aim is the Union with Divinity (the Unknown God/dess in Ain) and the transcending of the clay-born ego shackling the Spirit to the realm of the blind Creator. As such we have nothing in common with the greater majority of these people playing dress up “in the name of Satan” and we would indeed have more in common with Christian Gnostics.

As we see Satan as the other face of Lucifer we will always remain “Satanic Luciferians”, but as our Necrosophic and Gnostic approach has nothing in common with any other groups identifying themselves as “Satanists/Luciferians” there is no point in labelling ourselves as such, this mostly in order to avoid the causing of more confusion and to not attract further unwelcome attention and “support”.

We are but the servants of the Black Light of Divinity.

Nefastos wrote:So, let us be polite & respectful here, & see what we can learn from each other.
Sounds good.
Jiva wrote:Thank you for your post and in advance for any further ones. The insight is appreciated.

Well, I would say some comparison is possible. While the forms placed on things may be different, the underlying essence could be the same or similar. The God of one individual's tradition may be another's Devil; the form is different, the essence the same or similar. Similarly, definitions of things like Qliphoth are all individual to a degree, but are all ultimately derived from a trait of Jewish mysticism that makes them roughly mutually intelligible ideas.
Well met Jiva. On the contrary we believe that the forms are what may be similar and the Essence that is different. This is what most fail to understand, 218 has a myriad of expressions and different lines of practice but the Essence of all of them is the same, as they are just tools for the channelling of that essence and nothing more or less. We could talk about Universe A and Universe B instead of the kabbala and the Kliffot, the creator of Universe A (the universe we're currently in) is what we oppose because of his limiting impulse and the God of Universe B is the God we venerate in all lines of practice within the Current 218 and seek to strengthen within and outside of our own spirits.
Jiva wrote:The issue of animal sacrifices is particularly interesting to me as, after all, we are named after a sacrificial animal. And actually, it seems you use animal sacrifices in a similar way to the Biblical sacrificial goat. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think this maybe represents a fundamental difference between our philosophies, similar in context to the examples above. I would also say that just because many other traditions – maybe even the majority – practice animal sacrifice, this isn't in itself a reason to adopt it and definitely doesn't provide a satisfactory justification for it.
While the biblical scape-goat is something very interesting I don't see any similarities to our rites of animal sacrifice. Within the Necrosophic Current we sacrifice animals to literally give life to the dead. It is about the Life-force and its manipulation. There is explanation about this in TBoSA and other work of the Temple. In the west I know people claim to achieve the Giving of Life by blowing air, using their own blood or messing around with their own sexual fluids but I believe what they instead of what we want to achieve manage to do is just to create a link to themselves, which when it comes to working certain dark spirits or earthbound dead is a very bad idea (unless you don't believe in the actual existence of the spirits and then we have nothing to discuss), resulting in something similar to how I would put together and work curses against enemies, mixing their bodily fluids and other links of the victim with poisonous elements that then is placed before spirits.

When giving animals the personal link to one's own life-force, soul and spirit is omited, which is something neccesary when doing certain workings, and in higher workings more importantly the amount and actual quality of the sacrifice is also different, as we learn in 218 that obviously a Whole Life given up as offering in a correct and focused manner is different from giving "a fraction of life-force divided from its living source".

I am not here to convert people to these practices. If you don't like it or understand it then great, keep away from it and do what you like and what works for you. But in the same way that we have no problem with others doing what they feel is correct others without insight should also refrain from commenting ancient practices that in evolved forms are still kept alive until today within many esoteric traditions.
Jiva wrote:I also think there's a contradiction of sorts between saying one should read TotBL and TFC literature to understand the philosophy and then say that people who don't actively practice their contents won't understand the philosophy. Personally, I consider the majority of my insight into anti-cosmic philosophy to be derived from Vexior's Gullveigarbok, which necessitates a background in Scandinavian mythology to understand. So, with this in mind, the following confused me a bit:
Spinos wrote:Naturally, if one believes that the very few contain a Spark of Divinity and the majority lacks this, and one strife to make that Spark into a Great Fire then you might understand why those perceived as "spiritless" have very little to no value. Also please see my earlier answer to Fomalhaut concerning mankind.
I don't see what Vexiors books would have to do with the Current 218. I don't know him, but I know he is inspired by 218, but does his own thing and doesn't represent the Tradition I follow. Because I don't know him it is better I don't comment his work more than what I have done.

Philosophy in outer form is just a covering, what the LF books and TBoSA provides for me is a means for Practice and not another tool for "mental masturbation" as my mentor calls it. The teachings are aimed at practice and not meant to serve as another pseudo-intellectual means of giving comfortable people even more comfort in their inactivity. We do the Work and experience the essence or do nothing and are outside of the Current. This is very simple, when you actually have started to practice and seen the truth for yourself instead of just believing in other people's experiences or teachings.

Obviously just reading books is not enough, but it is a start, as we either learn directly from a teacher or from the official material bringing to us the teachings.
Jiva wrote:If everything in the cosmos is created from an anti-cosmic realm, surely then everything contains a "Spark of Divinity"?
Everything was not created from an anti-cosmic realm according to 218. "The Source of All is the Acosmic, which is not cosmic or anti-cosmic in itself, while having both impulses in a unified state inside of it and in a dualistic form outside of it.".

Keeping it simple, we believe the cosmos was created from the Unmanifest Source/Chaos/Ain and the Anti-cosmos was a reaction to the cosmic impulse, to counter "the transgression of limitation".

The Fireborn we talk about are the ones we consider containing a Spark of Divinity seeking return to the Source and thus of the anti-cosmic impulse, as we share the Will of the El-Acher (the anti-cosmic God) and champion His cause in all ways that in an active way "hastens the Return of All to the Fullness of Emptiness".

"Divinity is diluted throughout the creation and bound within it, but while the Thoughtful Impulse of the Demiurge clings unto limitation the Thoughtless Impulse of Azerate seeks the return of all back to the Unmanifest Divinity and Unbound State of the Primal Chaos of Ain. Those that do not seek to transcend creation are of its limiting structures and beyond conscious salvation, while those that by Spirit hear the Spirit of the Other God are of His Fires, which shall set the world aflame and make the Day of Wrath into that Glorious Day of Liberation".

The Current 218 has many different lines of practice, those most suitable to the cause are the ones favoured to work with. Getting results is spreading His Fire...

(All quotations are from the Temple teachings, used by me here with permission.)
obnoxion wrote: This must be a very demanding practice. I suppose most people wouldn't be able to perform it. You must be an extraordinary character, and that commands respect. But I cannot believe that killing anything would be necessary for spiritul practice. So why kill if it is not necessary?

Yet I think it can be quite necessary for many to kill for food. Some times the life of men might be in danger by starvation. But not being able to kill animals will not hinder anyone's spiritual life. I say this is a fact, not a matter of opinion.
It is demanding and not something done for fun or for every ritual.
See my answer to Jiva, for what I'm achieving in my magical work it is necessary and not doing so would indeed hinder my sorcerous work. The manipulation of life-force on the death level is something used in contexts demanding it, not because a god wants you to kill, but because the addition of a certain kind of power is needed to cause manifestation or resurrection. Satan don't give a crap if I kill an animal and don't demand it, it is not done out of a religious impulse, it is done because of the mechanism of the manipulation of the power of blood and the whole life that is given.

If one understand the published teachings I follow one can for example see this explanation already provided.

What is fact for you in your work might not be fact for me, in our different work. Your Occultism is not my occultism and you spirituality is not the same as mine either.

To state such facts makes my answering here a waste of time, as I can understand your perspective, but you are blind to mine with your strong opinions based on lack of knowledge when it comes to these practices.

obnoxion wrote:From your message I can see there are at least two fundamental differences between your practice and mine:
Spinos wrote:I personally believe that there is but one True Path to Divinity and that is the Essence of 218.

It certainly is not. There are many paths to Divinity. And should there be only one, then how shoud it be the most modern thing imaginable? I mean, your practice is one of the most recent things in the history or religion.
Excuse my unclear wording: I believe there certainly is just one True Path to Divinity FOR ME, and that is the Essence of 218, because of what I consider Divine. You might consider something else divine and your free to walk towards that in which ever way you choose, but that is the reason for why I don't want to mix my practice with other things .
obnoxion wrote: All is Spirit. If there is some spark that few have and others lack, making those others meaningless, then what you are doing is fundamentally different from Vodou, Quimbanda and other similar traditions.

But as you so truly said, my ways are not your ways. I can accept that.
Well, yes, what I do is fundamentally different from ATR and similar Traditions. However some of these have methods of authentic sorcery that could be worked, and have been worked, within the sorcerous practices of the Anti-cosmic Tradition.

But ATR are not anti-cosmic, no!

Who have made such false statement? Not me and sure the hell not my teachers. I meantioned ATR before when talking about blood-sacrifice given within magical rites. I didn't compare the religious ideas of ATR with 218. Sorcery is the practical manipulation of seen and unseen forces, religion is something more.

As for Quimbanda, there are Satanic lines of Quimbanda in Brazil and there is a Temple in Brazil that for example follow the 218. But, quimbanda is a system of sorcery and necromancy, and only a religion in secondary forms. With that being said I am not into ATR or Quimbanda and can't comment more than what I now have, but I recognise real magic when I see it.

I must add, my mentor corrected me on MLO and the ToTBL answer I gave earlier, they are two different organizations that only have Azerate and some members in common. The MLO was built to be something totally different while the TotBL is an initiatoric Temple. The MLO, according to my mentor, was a primitive outer manifestation while the TotBL is the esoteric aspect which took over more than 10 years ago. The MLO and the TotBL are thus two different organizations with totally different structures and goals.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:52 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Kenazis
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Re: TOTBL/MLO

Post by Kenazis »

Spinos wrote:Hello everyone,

I am a follower of the Current 218 since late 2008 and I will try to answer some of your questions. I work primarily in the Necrosophic Current 182 as presented in the Liber Falxifer I & II by the T.F.C.
Insanus wrote:Just to be clear:
TOTBL = Temple of the Black Light
MLO = Misanthropic Luciferian Order (old name for the same group)
No. The TOTBL once existed within the MLO.
This was new to me. Thanks for correcting. I think many has understood this like Insanus and I (outside the TOBL).
Spinos wrote:Again, there is no value in comparing the path of the "Star of Azazel" with the path of the Current 218.
I compare everything and also see great value in comparing even the things are not compatible.

Spinos wrote:Naturally, if one believes that the very few contain a Spark of Divinity and the majority lacks this, and one strife to make that Spark into a Great Fire then you might understand why those perceived as "spiritless" have very little to no value. Also please see my earlier answer to Fomalhaut concerning mankind.
...but can it be that the divine sparks are inside every one even they are harder to "wake up" in someone? Is there possibility that the Great Fire can be fueled by ethical progression and helping others to see their own divinity/fueling their Fire? Is there possibility (even you are completely right in other points you make) that you are wrong with this "majority lacks" point?
Kenazis wrote:bit an offtopic, but about religious animal sacrifice that some authors keep in high respect...I think that when you think killing animals is some holy act of sacrifice to God or Satan or whatever, you quite don't grasp what spirituality, sacrifice or magical powers really are about.
Spinos wrote:Not in the west perhaps... Animal sacrifice is part of most rural or ATR traditions in the world. In Asian Witchcraft, Hoodoo, Santeria, Quimbanda, Vudou... Perhaps they also "quite don't grasp what spirituality, sacrifice or magical powers really are about."?
.
This I personally see to be the case. Views can progress, understand can grow. I don't deny that there are power involved in sacrifice, but it's same kind of power than fist in the face. I prefer more subtle use. I see sacrificing animals (or humans) an old way practice, old way meaning here "not as developed than the new way". Old way like the catholic church, like the Muslims stoning adulterers...
Spinos wrote:...

I will be monitoring this thread and will be happy to further discuss the subjects and try my very best to answer the questions some of you might have regarding the teachings of the Current 218, but I would sincerely prefer to do so in a more worthy and mature tone than the one that has been governing this thread prior to my arrival.

Hail Lucifer!
This would be good indeed. For view from inside is always different than view from outside.

Hail Lucifer!
"We live for the woods and the moon and the night"
swordofapostasy
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Re: TOTBL/MLO

Post by swordofapostasy »

Thank you very much for being here Spinos, I am personally very inspired by alot of the Current 218 material and I see some commonalities between what I know of SoA and 218 although obviously some of these commonalities could be only superficial:

Gnostic tendencies such as:

-recognition of the Serpent of Eden as a liberator and teacher

-an embracing of antinomian practices as a valid means of spiritual liberation

Other commonalities might be the theistic approach to Satanism, the rejection of the atheistic charlatanry of Lavey and his like.

I guess my question is to what degree are the myths of the 218 Current such as the Cain and Abel story in Falxifer 2 to be taken literally? I understand that Abel is identified with the clay-born ego within Cain himself and thus the killing represents Cain's embracing of his antinomian roots. But does Current 218 also think these events actually occurred within history?

In my own perspective these stories can be taken to some extent both literally and symbolically, for example I see Jehovah as representing the mundane human ego that is opposed by those who have achieved the Pleroma (the "fullness" of enlightenment) the spark of which is bestowed by Lucifer/Christ/Satan who embodies and guides us towards that fullness.

At the same time I can see a possible parallel between the creation story presented in BoSA and the events of the Big Bang, as sort of the spiritual events that preceded or initiated that material explosion.
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Jiva
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Re: TOTBL/MLO

Post by Jiva »

Thanks you for your responses. Firstly, allow me to apologise for some lack of clarity and a mistake. I mentioned Vexior's work and my relation to it to state that I have some understanding of something that shares similar sentiments to your belief (his full name was Vexior 218 after all, while he quotes from Liber Azerate in Gullveigarbok), but is ultimately not identical. And yeah, I meant "acosmic" rather than "anti-cosmic". I've made that annoying mistake on this forum and other places a few times.

Anyway, I mentioned that I considered how you describe animal sacrifice as similar to the Biblical sacrificial goat as you include part of your ego/life force, presumably transmitted to the animal during your bonding. How you view this, I'm not sure: is the part of your ego/life force similar to the Jewish 'sin offering' of something corrupt to be purified, or a similar transmission of something you consider pure to it's proper home, or something else entirely?

And while I'd agree that some philosophy is undoubtedly “mental masturbation”, to condemn an entire genre of research as such would be like saying all devotional/ceremonial worship is the “aesthetic masturbation” of dancing round altars in capes. It may be true in some cases but certainly isn't the rule. Philosophy could be an anathema to someone; it's not a prerequisite: to each their own. However, philosophy is one of the many genres of human activity that have enjoyed a historic crossover with occultism/esotericism/mysticism/whatever – after all, I would assume the terms “form” and “essence” are derived from Platonic philosophy?
'Oh Krishna, restless and overpowering, this mind is overwhelmingly strong; I think we might as easily gain control over the wind as over this.'
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Insanus
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Re: TOTBL/MLO

Post by Insanus »

Spinos wrote:
Insanus wrote:Makes me feel like the point is to glorify necrophilous passions & that the religious feeling is more important than the goal of cosmic dissolution itself. Wikipedia mentioned they teach "extreme militant nihilism". What is this extremity and how is it important?
I can only give you a recommendation towards the actual publications instead of wikipedia to base such "feelings" on, lest your "feelings" might be mistaken for "the fear of that which you don't understand". Within 218/182 practicing necrophilia would break unforgivable taboos as well as being counter-productive initiatory wise, which brings us to the second part of your post, what might be seen by spectators concerning the breaking of the bonds to this world is what some perceive as "extreme militant nihlism". Practicing any "philias" for their own sake is, from our perspective, naturally counter-productive to what we strife to achieve, as it is binding.
I admit my claims come from a point of view that lacks good information, but I think I also was very unclear with what I actually meant.

By necrophilia I did not mean any sort of sexual orientation or hasty emotional drive, but a more abstract ritualistic-religious flame that focuses on death & dying = breaking bonds to this world, not digging corpses up from graves. This sort of focus is fiery & strong & naturally is viewed by many as militant nihilism & in that context I don't even mind the term. What made me worried was the question of whether the means become more important than the ends if you can understand what I mean. Perhaps the question could be formed in less bad-tempered manner this way: how would you distinguish the element of Fire & the element of Spirit?
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Spinos
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Re: TOTBL/MLO

Post by Spinos »

swordofapostasy wrote:Thank you very much for being here Spinos, I am personally very inspired by alot of the Current 218 material and I see some commonalities between what I know of SoA and 218 although obviously some of these commonalities could be only superficial:

Gnostic tendencies such as:

-recognition of the Serpent of Eden as a liberator and teacher

-an embracing of antinomian practices as a valid means of spiritual liberation

Other commonalities might be the theistic approach to Satanism, the rejection of the atheistic charlatanry of Lavey and his like.
Inspiration is very good if it lead to something substantial. If it only leads to copying parts of the esoteric work in order to make “nice websites” or to dilute the teachings with unrelated ideas, like what so many people seem to be doing, well then it is not so great.

I hope you are inspired on an earnest level and that it brings you the kinds of result your dedication to the teachings deserves.

Indeed those commonalities you mention seem to exist and that is a good thing, but that is the surface and what is more important is not the ideas and ideals that we all on an outer level casually can agree about but what we actually do about them. 

How do we work in order to manifest and realise goals that we may have based on those and many other ideas and ideals?  That is what I think is important and the difference between the many existing systems and traditions, as we learn that actions speak louder than words and that “One should Know via direct experiences achieved through Praxis and Spirit-Congress, instead of creating belief-attachments based solely on theoretical speculations”.

I post here as a student of the Current and not as a representative of any temple, so what I give is just my own casual 2 cents worth point of view as there is no official mandate against the Star of Azazel from the 218/182, but based on the experience that I do have I know that it is never good to mix things from different “Living and Warded Traditions”. On the simplest level it shows a lack of respect, not only to the people within the traditions, but also to of the Spirits/ Deities that have specific manifestations inside of those different currents.  

That being said, after looking into things and asking those I trust I find the Star of Azazel system and approach to be 10.000 times better than all the hylic forms of American Satanism or Luciferianism that is out there, so if nothing else a friendly relationship between traditions would not be out of question, from where I stand.
swordofapostasy wrote:I guess my question is to what degree are the myths of the 218 Current such as the Cain and Abel story in Falxifer 2 to be taken literally? I understand that Abel is identified with the clay-born ego within Cain himself and thus the killing represents Cain's embracing of his antinomian roots. But does Current 218 also think these events actually occurred within history?
All myths I have learnt are true on their own level and in their own context. The accepted physical reality is not the only one and while the myths may not tell about mundane history they carry truths hidden within them more real than what the news reports on TV every night try to brainwash people with.

To quote the Magister:  “There is actually very little of that which we ascribe to Qayin that does not have a traditional basis. It is only a question of finding the sources and viewing them from the right perspective and understanding them according to personal and context-specific Gnosis. Most importantly it is a question of Spirit Revelation, for stand assured that our Work is inspired by those with whom we have covenants and that for us “mythical” constructs hold an actual reality unrestricted by that which is perceived as “physical reality”.

Abel is from my understanding something that Qayin killed both outside and inside of himself in order to attain what we understand as Power-Gnosis-Liberation-Ascension.

It was a murderous deed and not only a mental exercise and part of a greater Work leading to “Separation from one side and Unification with and Elevation through the Other”.
swordofapostasy wrote:At the same time I can see a possible parallel between the creation story presented in BoSA and the events of the Big Bang, as sort of the spiritual events that preceded or initiated that material explosion.
We learn that the physical mimic the spiritual and therefore it may very well be so that for example ideas of big bang could be compared to the creation story you mention, but what is important is to know to separate “the Spiritual and Mythic Realities” from the mundane and scientific ones, as I see some confused people trying to prove or disprove the Gnosis of Spirit with their own understanding of causal science, running around all confused like chickens with their head’s cut off.

If one learns to separate the dayside reasoning from that of the magical nightside thinking less confusion will arise, that was the case for me. 

The intuitive knowledge of spirit is on another level and shouldn’t be limited by the mundane logic of the world of matter.

Again to quote the 218-teachings:

“Let the man of clay seek his own limitations within the clay and let the Man of Spirit reach for and seek truth in Spiritual Fire. For those that can not see beyond the World there is Nothing Beyond, but for those that see through the worlds of Creation and Anti-Creation the Nothing Beyond holds All Unbound and Unmanifest Potentia(l), Unrestricted and Eternal in Paradoxical Dynamism of the Zeroth Point of Divinity.”
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