Thelema

Convictions, morals, other societies and religions.
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Jiva
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Re: Thelema

Postby Jiva » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:40 pm

Thanks for the reply!

So, to put this in a metaphysical context: Love here is a kind of primordial state of unity that wants to know itself, Will creates duality to facilitate this and sinks things into bondage/materiality/whatever, but this Will can then be directed toward the process of attaining an equilibrium of self-knowledge between the two values?
'Oh Krishna, restless and overpowering, this mind is overwhelmingly strong; I think we might as easily gain control over the wind as over this.'
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Insanus
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Re: Thelema

Postby Insanus » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:02 pm

Jiva wrote:Thanks for the reply!

So, to put this in a metaphysical context: Love here is a kind of primordial state of unity that wants to know itself, Will creates duality to facilitate this and sinks things into bondage/materiality/whatever, but this Will can then be directed toward the process of attaining an equilibrium of self-knowledge between the two values?
Yes. We could call that primordial state of unity will or understanding (instead of love) too, and form a bit different symbol/myth from the same idea.
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Re: Thelema

Postby Fomalhaut » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:56 pm

Insanus wrote:
Jiva wrote:Actually, I was wondering if anyone had any views on either the “Do what thou wilt” quote or especially Crowley's other mantra “Love is the law, love under will”? I'm really interested in the latter as, according to Wikipedia (which is always dangerous, I know :P), both Thelema (Will) and Agape (Love) calculate in Greek isopsephy to 93. Basically I'm curious why Love is subservient to Will especially as they have the same numeric value, or if this is even a correct assertion. After all, it's only a brief sentence which could be interpreted in any number of ways...
My favorite topic.

IMO the idea is that as long as your motivation for acting is anything else than Love, you're not actually acting yourself proactively, but mostly react & repeat things you've learned and/or let astral impulses/beings act through you. Love is the highest value (and the key to freeing one's will from bondage), but love is love only "under will", because otherwise it'd be passive dreaming and astral stuff again. That's why, even though in the end Love=Will, from an unenlightened perspective it's better to say love under will.
I was thinking the same thing what Jiva asked while reading Kenneth Grant's "Cults of the Shadow" last night. I am glad to see that someone else asked before I did :))
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Re: Thelema

Postby RPSTOVAL » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:20 am

RaktaZoci wrote:
Insanus wrote: I'd recommend it (Liber 718) to everyone interested in the Brotherhood's Red Aspect: there's some (useful & important) challenge finding a good, non-compromising interpretation without accepting physical violence.
which can be found here, apparently:
http://www.aiwass.com/Liber440.pdf

Liber 440 is bullshit. Somebody decided to mash up Liber Legis with some random person's fanfiction, not cool! :x
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Re: Thelema

Postby RPSTOVAL » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:05 pm

While I may call myself a self-professed Thelemite, I fall into the area of treating it as an intellectual, philosophical and practical system rather than a religious.

If my name wasn't an indication, I am infatuated with Liber Legis (and all Crowley's writings too) and love ciphers :D


I think a very beautiful aspect of Thelema is how it is a system that doesn't rely on faith, it works! It is routed in science and psychology, as far as practices go, and it effects me in immensely positive ways.

The symbology is also beautiful and the kabbalistic aspects add a level of immersion that never fails to impress/surprise me.


:)
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Re: Thelema

Postby RaktaZoci » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:41 pm

RPSTOVAL wrote:While I may call myself a self-professed Thelemite, I fall into the area of treating it as an intellectual, philosophical and practical system rather than a religious.

If my name wasn't an indication, I am infatuated with Liber Legis (and all Crowley's writings too) and love ciphers :D

I think a very beautiful aspect of Thelema is how it is a system that doesn't rely on faith, it works! It is routed in science and psychology, as far as practices go, and it effects me in immensely positive ways.

The symbology is also beautiful and the kabbalistic aspects add a level of immersion that never fails to impress/surprise me.
Even though this is much a matter of opinion, I think it's slightly rude to underrate the effect of religious impulse in one's work. I personalyl see that there is, to a certain amount, a level of religiousness in Thelema also. This, I think, should be respected, amongst it's other qualities.

How I see it is that the "science and psychology" you mention are just starting to understand the truth behind Man and cosmology, which has been known to occultism for countless Aeons.
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Re: Thelema

Postby obnoxion » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:16 pm

RaktaZoci wrote:
RPSTOVAL wrote:While I may call myself a self-professed Thelemite, I fall into the area of treating it as an intellectual, philosophical and practical system rather than a religious.

If my name wasn't an indication, I am infatuated with Liber Legis (and all Crowley's writings too) and love ciphers :D

I think a very beautiful aspect of Thelema is how it is a system that doesn't rely on faith, it works! It is routed in science and psychology, as far as practices go, and it effects me in immensely positive ways.

The symbology is also beautiful and the kabbalistic aspects add a level of immersion that never fails to impress/surprise me.
Even though this is much a matter of opinion, I think it's sligtly rude to underrate the effect of religious impulse in one's work. I personalyl see that there is, to a certain amount, a level of religiousness in Thelema also. This, I think, should be respected, amongst it's other qualities.

How I see it is that the "science and psychology" you mention are just starting to understand the truth behind Man and cosmology, which has been known to occultism for countless Aeons.
"Method of science, aim of religion..."

I was heavily into Thelema as interpreted by Kenneth Grant, who was a kind of "Shakta Thelemite". But that was years ago...

Perhaps my main criticism would the effect Crowley had on most of his students and companions, leaving as he did a trail of ruined lives in his trail.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Thelema

Postby Mimesis » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:51 am

I must admit that Thelema and the works of Crowley are not something that I can relate to or resonate with.
However, I don’t think it rude for one to present ones perception of something, even if it proves different to the perception and practice of others. If I understand correctly, ‘RPSTOVAL’ was only presenting their perception of Thelema, rather than claiming the perception of it.

I stand well ready to be corrected and educated in this, because my interest in this area is minimal, but when thinking of Thelema and the works of Crowley, I have always had this large question hanging over me about what the relation and understanding is between magic and faith in this tradition....both are present, although the former to a much larger vocal degree. And I have never been able to take anything away from it, other than that these two truths are too extremely separated....(?).
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Re: Thelema

Postby RPSTOVAL » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:50 pm

RaktaZoci wrote:Even though this is much a matter of opinion, I think it's slightly rude to underrate the effect of religious impulse in one's work. I personalyl see that there is, to a certain amount, a level of religiousness in Thelema also. This, I think, should be respected, amongst it's other qualities.

How I see it is that the "science and psychology" you mention are just starting to understand the truth behind Man and cosmology, which has been known to occultism for countless Aeons.


I agree with you, though all I am saying is that it doesn't matter what exactly you believe about it (on the religious side, which I do find is valid), it will still work for you if you put in the practice/effort.

Again, what I am saying is that from a neutral perspective regarding that side of it, Thelema works regardless of what you believe. This is part of the immense beauty of it, there is a practical-ness (that you could compare to Zen/Taoism) that gives it a results-driven kind of depth.
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Re: Thelema

Postby RPSTOVAL » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:08 pm

obnoxion wrote: "Method of science, aim of religion..."
Precisely!
obnoxion wrote: I was heavily into Thelema as interpreted by Kenneth Grant, who was a kind of "Shakta Thelemite". But that was years ago...
Some things in Grants writings keeps a distance between me and him but I find his work entirely fascinating and a pleasure to read.
obnoxion wrote: Perhaps my main criticism would the effect Crowley had on most of his students and companions, leaving as he did a trail of ruined lives in his trail.
I agree but I am also unsurprised, seeing how strange some of the people themselves tended to be.

Notable ones to me included Frater Achad, who sometimes felt like a kindred spirit in a way at times. I love reading his writings, 31 Hymns To The Star Goddess is a beautiful collection of poetry too btw. But sadly he didn't reach his potential and find his true will :(

The (Jack) Parsons/Hubbard situation is as aggravating, as it is interesting. Crowley knew Hubbard was full of shit straight away too, Parsons was so set on certain ideas too (both in the science world and with Thelema) :oops:

Austin Spare was an interesting case too, which (like Parsons) still has a lot of ambiguity, considering Crowley still respected him.


There are plenty of odd situations and obviously, with anything that is perceived by the mainstream public to be "occult", is gonna attract some weirdos.

Though even Crowley himself didn't help his 'cause' either. He assimilated something very beautiful, real, practice and inspiring but because of his sense of humor (which in itself is ironic) at the slander being made by Christians/Catholics and the media at the time, he has left a white stain in his legacy that will take a long time to remove from public conscious. Thing is, the only major mainstream attention he gets is from Conspiracy Nutjobs and Truthers. The whole thing is a mindfuck :lol:
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