Norse Mythology/Runes

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Jiva
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Jiva » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:41 am

Well, there are two concepts in Norse mythology that could be considered etheric doppelgängers of the body, but which shapes the other or whether it's a mutual process is something I don't know. I haven't read a lot about them – literally just a few paragraphs – so maybe Heith knows more?

The first is the fylgja (plural is fylgjur) that are considered to be similar to the protective spirits of the Roman genii or Christian guardian angels. They are also related to the soul, fortune and destiny, and can be passed on to family members after death. “Flygja” means “follow”, but also “afterbirth” which could connect to “fulga” (“skin”).

The second is hamingja, which is unsurprisingly very similar to the fylgja. It seems a person with a hamingja was able to project a physical representation outside of the body. Alternatively, it appears they were able to change their shape. After death, the hamingja had the option of transferring to people outside their immediate family relations.


Regarding “reorienting Malkuth to Da'at” - I explained that fairly clumsily :oops:. “Da'at” means “knowledge”, of which the lower definition of dualistic knowledge applies to Malkuth and could therefore correspond to Midgard. The higher definition is non-dualistic knowledge and allows the unification of the 10 sephira. The process is typically understood as one of perception rather than literal macrocosmic apocalypse which is where I have to disagree with you, although perhaps paradoxically I strongly agree with your following statement.
Nefastos wrote:And thus the "mismade" field is in every possible formal point, and suffuses them all. In that way, these different interpretations might be all valid, depending on the point of the observer. All the fields of consciousness will be "mismade" at that point of summit when we're ready to absorb them back to that only that is "Good", namely, to the absolute spirit. In that way, the whole creation (Manvantara) is an act of self-immolation.
'Oh Krishna, restless and overpowering, this mind is overwhelmingly strong; I think we might as easily gain control over the wind as over this.'
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Nefastos » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:16 am

Actually, I have discussed fylgjur with Heith earlier, if only shortly.

The usual problem for occultists is to try & bend different mythologies to correspond with their terminology: sometimes that works, sometimes not. (Much like you said in the Archon-topic, divinites do not often bend to be translated so easiely into concepts of men.) This double nature of physical being is one such thing I see different traditions dealing with very different ways.

It would be nice to try to make out what the fylgja & hamingja are in the context of our own seven-fold structure, if you (Jiva & Heith) want? As a first working hypothesis I'd suggest they might be some kind of shared projections working through both linga sharîra & energetical karma principle that touches not only human & but also the spirit realms, and not just etheric doubles of men. What was that connection to valkyries?

Jiva wrote:The process is typically understood as one of perception rather than literal macrocosmic apocalypse which is where I have to disagree with you


I think it's very healthy to interpret apocalyptic visions as purely symbolistic. It is so depressingly common to take these visions literally & start to preach the end of the world; and usually it's because their cataclysmic nature has found resonance in our own emotional traumas, hence creating the illusion of actual revelation. "I feel it so strongly that therefore this must be true!"

I must stress that I didn't mean it like that: countless years our planet has been a stage of all kinds of cataclysmic events. In every age there are people who are preaching the end of the world, and rarely do they stop to think if that end is just inside their own heads. That is how the astral intoxication works: if fills people with so strong a feeling or vision of something that they consider it as a macrocosmic reality, when it is actually microcosmic & their own inner turmoil.

What I meant that there are cycles within cycles, & at ages' summit points the smaller cycles touch the larger ones: & our small cycle is touching the larger one, hence creating a vast cultural event. But even these smaller cycles are cycles of thousands of years, & our present "cataclysm" has lasted decades & centuries already. Those new Earth & new Heaven will not be seen by our grandchildren's grandchildren, but as spiritual dynamics they are not seen only by them, but by us.

Still it's a very small-scale "Ragnarök", a vertical one (in time), and the great twilight battle is the fact that we truly live in this physical existence: the horizontal apocalypse that begun when the physical manifestation first came to being, & which will last till the world has again been immersed to sacred night.

About my carelessly tossed reference to the Moon, I started another topic.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Heith » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:43 pm

Jiva wrote:I haven't read a lot about them – literally just a few paragraphs – so maybe Heith knows more?
Sorry for the following confused rambling, I'm really tired and hungry!

Yes, Fylgja is roughly the same as Holy Guardian Angel. Or a power animal. Fylgjas can be "inherited" as you point out. In finnish tradition we had "birth elves" (finn. Syntyhaltija) which were something that were attached to a person at the moment of their birth. A fylgja literally follows one throughout their life, as would the "guardian elf". One of my teachers suggests that a Fylgja would have something to do with Elves, so this would go nicely with the finnish tradition- they are quite close to one another anyway. But I haven't really looked into that. It's on my list of "things to do" :)

I might be wrong here, but, I tend to think Hamingja is not the "matter" that changes shape. This is "Hamr". Hamr is somewhat similar as an astral body, and can "run errands", or can be projected outwards during sleep or trance working. (Note Old Norse "Hamrammr" , something like "strong in shape" although this I just took from the internets, so it might be wrong). So, for example, a nightmare would be a (probably seidr) working of hamr, provided I understand this correctly. I tend to think that a lot of seid is to do with hamr and tranceworking.

You are correct that Hamingja and Fylgja are really close to one another, and difficult to separate at times. It tends to get quite confusing.

A person with strong Hamingja, however, has easier time shaping their hamr. Hamingja seems to be connected with Wyrd as well. Hamingja refers more to a "family fylgja", or "family luck", it's a collective thing more than belonging to just one person. It's a karmic thing that runs in the family. Everyone has a hamingja, as everyone has a fylgja and hamr, minne, etc. But a person with a strong Hamingja finds it easier to work their Hamr.

As a thumb rule:
Hamr is the "matter" of a working
Hamingja is the "power" behind it.
(Hugr I would think to be the will behind a working.) There's a strong connection between Fylgja and Hugr.

I've been meaning to make some kind of a picture or diagram of this to show to my runic students, as this is easily highly confusing. If I get around doing one, can try and post it somewhere.

A memory rule to shapeshifters everywhere I'll share something I came up with during a bus trip:
Put on a Hamr- Hugr- Haming hat!
Be a wolf, bear or cat!


:D
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Jiva » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:54 pm

Heith wrote:Hamingja refers more to a "family fylgja", or "family luck", it's a collective thing more than belonging to just one person. It's a karmic thing that runs in the family. Everyone has a hamingja, as everyone has a fylgja and hamr, minne, etc. But a person with a strong Hamingja finds it easier to work their Hamr.
Thanks for the info :). I didn't realise hamingja could have a social aspect. I guess the hamingja wasn't strictly reserved for relatives but could also be applied to close groups of unrelated people? A more immediate comparison would perhaps be the geochakras of the SoA, whereas comparitively perhaps the Hindu kaula.
Heith wrote:As a thumb rule:
Hamr is the "matter" of a working
Hamingja is the "power" behind it.
(Hugr I would think to be the will behind a working.) There's a strong connection between Fylgja and Hugr.
I'd always interpreted the hugr as thought and the munr as will, almost as analogues of Odin's Hugin and Munin.


I think I'll read try and read some of the sagas that mention flygjur and other similar beings, as a relentless focus on philosophy might drive me mad :P. Although another similar being I just remember is the Vordr which could add to the confusion of this already confusing subject.
'Oh Krishna, restless and overpowering, this mind is overwhelmingly strong; I think we might as easily gain control over the wind as over this.'
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Heith » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:21 pm

Jiva wrote: I guess the hamingja wasn't strictly reserved for relatives but could also be applied to close groups of unrelated people?
Yes, indeed. Sometimes our friends are more "kin" than our family. So most certainly, I agree with what you suggest here.

This is the case with Minni as well, although in Minni is the collective memory of one's ancestral line, as suggested by Freyja Aswynn I think? So on Minni "buddy memory" doesn't really function, I think. One could think this is a little bit like DNA memory- I mean, our DNA never forgets anything.

Vordr I am not familiar with, or at least don't remember this from the top of my head. I would like to add some more confusion on this thread and hear about this!

If you want to, I can see what my book about Norns has to say about Fylgjur. I recall it has some rather interesting points, and is a highly technical book. A lot of source materials mentioned in original language so one can always check.

Oh yes. I would like to have that book about Gullveig at some point. I dislike the writer's style somewhat, but it sums some locations and the like neatly. Well, I could read some, as a preview. :)
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Jiva » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:54 pm

The only info I have on Vordr is from Wikipeda. I know there are some academic articles available, but finding them at a reasonable price is difficult.

I get the impression that Vordr weren't as important or aren't regarded as such today. However, one thing I've always found fascinating is how old Norse/Anglo Saxon concepts have been adapted over the years, eventually resulting in the modern English today. Therefore “vordr” became “warden”. My favourite is “wyrd” to “weird”.

I've actually speculatively arrived at a similar meaning to minni as you, at least one beyond the more mundane definitions. Mine wasn't based on anything academic though, but rather from a train of thoughts based on the title of the Gorgoroth song Blod og Minne ;).

If you end up creating a diagram of the various Norse etheric bodies it would be much appreciated if you could post it. Same if you do any comparative work on the Syntyhaltija. Although I haven't posted anything in the Kalevala thread lately, I'm still dipping into the book every now and then, especially if I find myself wandering around the countryside more than usual.
'Oh Krishna, restless and overpowering, this mind is overwhelmingly strong; I think we might as easily gain control over the wind as over this.'
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Heith » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:21 pm

I'll see what I can do- after tonight's class we have a two week break with my Runic study group, so I might have some extra time. Well not really, no, but I might find myself doing this type of diagrams or the like as study material for the group.

It's awful to have no internet at home actually, I keep forgetting some details and I hate it that I can't rush to my bookshelf and notes when a sudden idea hits me. Often when I read in here, I get a hunch of something, but it's so vague I should start to think about it intensely immediately or it's lost. And now there's so many things to do, my memory is like that of a goldfish.

I'll have to ask my friend about this Syntyhaltija, as she is more well versed in such subjects, and the finnish tradition- something I should look into at some point as well.

It always annoys me that academic texts cost so much. I've paid myself sick a few times, really good books, but still. Bah!
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Heith » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:09 am

Concerning Vörðr from wiki, they mention

The perception of another person's warden could cause a physical sensation such as an itching hand or nose, as a foreboding or an apparition.

This is a known phenomenon in Lapland, and the term Etiäinen is still in use there. It means roughly something that comes forth before the person who sent it- for example, a wife can sense the husband's Etiäinen when he leaves from work, and she knows when to put the kettle on. I thought to mention this, as you're interested of Kalevala. Wikipedia mentions that this is the same as norwegian vardøgr, which is probably the same thing as ON Vörðr.

I should look at my book of the Norns, it probably has more info of this.
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Nefastos » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:53 am

I'm glad you've found some time to discuss these things in detail! I've been too busy with my boring mundane studies lately, so I have been quiet here.

From the basis of what you said, it still sounds to me that we're working here with that old problem of astral-ether-relationship which is not uncommon in different esoteric traditions. On the top of that, it also deals with the subjectivity-objectivity of karmic matter, which is another fascinating problem.

But these two problems overlap, because:

- Astral body or the kâma-rûpa is subjective (although it can interact with others)
- Etheric body or the linga-sharîra is objective (i.e. it is made of actualized force, although it is invisible)

Early theosophists, for example, never used these words coherently. At the time the problem was acknowledged, the whole structure of thought had already condensed into veiled materialism (my personal opinion) & the case was lost.

The etheric (energetic) body theoretically can act without astral impulse, but more often it doesn't: because the former is so subtle & the latter so dynamic, astral usually overrides the etheric & their difference is hard to tell. That is a fact especially in witchcraft (by which I here mean formal magic not demanding purity of intention &c.), of which practices many use just this kind of astral-etheric convergence.

As sor Heith said:

Heith wrote:You are correct that Hamingja and Fylgja are really close to one another, and difficult to separate at times. It tends to get quite confusing.

Jiva wrote:I guess the hamingja wasn't strictly reserved for relatives but could also be applied to close groups of unrelated people? A more immediate comparison would perhaps be the geochakras of the SoA, whereas comparitively perhaps the Hindu kaula.


About this "sharing of magnetism" - magnetism being just another word for etheric substance of which the body of prâna-structure i.e. linga sharîra is made of - I wrote here. It is also a reason why I wouldn't easily recommend polygamia or polyamoria for serious occultists: the magnetic body would too easily lose its integrity & therefore stable channel to âtma-buddhi-manas if many different magnetic currents are to lead into it simultaneously.

In a kaula brotherhood that uses subtler methods than actual coitus to bring about energetical unity, it is the purified astral body that becomes a receptacle of common "karma" (herein meaning also the original Sanskrit word for Action). But in a brotherhood that seeks no truly spiritual ends but rather shared power in devotion to elementals, sex can be used in such a way, and there the common receptacle would be linga sharîra. That is the old way of traditional devil worshippers. But today such a practice almost certainly leads to the downward path, for it gives just the kind of impulse that strengthens astral intoxication & lessens the individual devotion in ethical sense.

Heith wrote:Concerning Vörðr from wiki, they mention

The perception of another person's warden could cause a physical sensation such as an itching hand or nose, as a foreboding or an apparition.

This is a known phenomenon in Lapland, and the term Etiäinen is still in use there. It means roughly something that comes forth before the person who sent it- for example, a wife can sense the husband's Etiäinen when he leaves from work, and she knows when to put the kettle on. I thought to mention this, as you're interested of Kalevala. Wikipedia mentions that this is the same as norwegian vardøgr, which is probably the same thing as ON Vörðr.


Not only in Lapland, I often heard of etiäinen even when I was a small boy in South Karelia. The name can be taken as derived from "etukäteinen" ("that which comes before") and/or "etäinen" ("the distant one"). I think these two have merged here to have the meaning of both, but I don't know if linguists or folklorists would disagree with me here.

Etiäinen seems to be a forerrunning magnetic current, and how (& if) one perceives it, depends on many things:

- How strong is the focus of the sender (a. generally, b. at the moment, c. regarding the specific receiver/place...)
- How sensitive is the receiver (again with a-c)

Et cetera.

The difficult thing here is, these things discussed here are not so much "principles" as such, but processes of energization which go all the way through the different priciples & to the semiobjective matter & are finally projected to the subtle senses of the receiver. The principles, on the other hand, are just that: foundations that are not dependant of situation. (That's why we use them; understanding those tools & how they work, specific phenomena can become understandable.)

The shared karma (or a magic bond, or however we want to term it) in & between human principles & different elemental kingdoms - for example, regarding the "guardian angels" of individuals & likewise in places, families, brotherhoods - would be a great topic of discussion too. I don't even try to fit it here, although I confess I'm tempted... :)
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Heith » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:26 pm

Nefastos wrote:- for example, regarding the "guardian angels" of individuals & likewise in places, families, brotherhoods - would be a great topic of discussion too. I don't even try to fit it here, although I confess I'm tempted... :)
I really feel that this thread is going to explode to all sorts of directions anyway, I'm still itching to sink my teeth on Gullveig- Freyja- Frigg, that we sort of started with fra Jiva at some point. So go ahead, or perhaps start a new topic- as guardian angels easily overlaps other traditions as well.

I will get back on this & comment on what you wrote above but now I've not the time nor energy to put in the effort that your post undoubtedly deserves- too tired so my English skill is -10 at the moment.

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