Norse Mythology/Runes

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Jiva
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Jiva » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:44 am

I can only remember one source at the moment: Gisli's Saga. The following quote's taken from the English chapter 8 although "Hellshoe" or "Hellshoon" are mentioned elsewhere if you want to do a quick ctr+f :lol:. Yep, the translation's unfortunately fairly old, but it's the best I could find for free.
Now Gisli made ready to lay Vestein in his howe, and they meant to lay him in the sandhill which looks down on the tarn just below Sæbol, and as they were on their way with the body Thorgrim came up with many men to meet them. And when they had heaped up the howe, and were going to lay the body in it, Thorgrim the priest goes up to Gisli, and says, "Tis the custom, brother-in-law, to bind the hellshoe on men, so that they may walk on them to Valhalla, and I will now do that by Vestein.
The Icelandic chapters don't correspond to the English ones so I think this quote is from the Icelandic chapter 14.
'Oh Krishna, restless and overpowering, this mind is overwhelmingly strong; I think we might as easily gain control over the wind as over this.'
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Nefastos » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:54 pm

Jiva wrote:Simply put, both Heimdall and Janus are posited to be gods that allow events to be framed.


That's really evocative, although I think it might have evoked a bit too many sided thoughts from me; feel free to skip or read at your leisure.

(I'd say the red thread here is once again the connection of the point in the middle and its means as the - well, exactly that red thread itself, linking it to the outer world of phenomena. To ponder upon this meeting point of the White and the Red has been in brotherhood's business this week most intensively.)

Considering Janus & the frames/doors symbolism in Satanism:

I've always felt Janus to be a very apt presentation of Satan, or one of the most important aspects of Him. The two-facedness, the presence on the threshold (let's remember Bulwer-Lyttons Dweller On The Threshold, and even Lovecraft's similar entities), & cetera. How his seemingly sinister attributes spring from a fact he's not fully this or that, but always gives to one side a peek of another. Such an entity can never be completely understood - as long as one is a human being, that is -, because its very nature is paradoxical and in two foci at once.

Every kind of a door, gateway, even pieces of art - especially ones with spiritual meanings seen in them, like icons & sigils - belong to such kind of an entity. They are no-man's-lands of a small scale. But in occultism, scale hardly matters, because "that which is below is like to that which is above". An interesting thing is, of course, that everything can be seen as piece of art - like in frames - when we choose to see it so. Of like it is said, the gates are in everything & at every moment.

When lodge Nebucadnezzar was at first making the last years annual magazine for the Star of Azazel, they had this idea that all the illustrations would be about gateways. Doors, wells, yonis. In the end the editor compromised on that, but the idea was extremely good. Part of it was (I think) about how things were moving from one cycle of time to another. In SOA and elsewhere, too. Here we see the Black or traditional aspect of Satan as giving birth through gates... which are often the gates of (seeming) suffering, as it is in childbirth.

In Lucifer, we see the same: star of the morning & the evening, the twilight zone. As of Satan, I think the most meaningful of his aspects for an occultist is the one of the Great Hierophant. "When one is to be initiated, He lets his Star to shine (upon the neophyte)", it is said about Sanat-Kumara, who is "the Prince of This World". Here we see the White or Luciferian aspect of Satan as giving the initiative. In such a case the gate, the yoni or the world matrix, is penetrated to another direction: not from the inside to outside, but from outside to inside. In that way the act is usually more the one of pleasure than that of pain.

And in Azazel as a scape-goat Christ we even have an idiom of "being framed": someone is given a condemning, unauthentic context. For "putting in context" as a neutral act of mind is another kind of framing, or door-making. At every moment we live in some kind of context, and that context takes the chaos out of existence: it gives it a structure. I think people usually think only that "going out of something" when they think of Satan; but in him as this two-faced Janus figure there's always "going in to something" at the same time. When this moment of transition and transsubstantion if emphasized, the Red aspect becomes dominant.

That's it considering the Januan aspects of Satanism, so to say. So what about Heimdall in this picture?

I also think of Heimdall, "the white one", as related to the white aspect of the brotherhood, as a certain kind of guardian. People have their freedom (in the world or in the brotherhood), but it is not absolute: there are rules. White (as a symbol or purity, pristine state, but also of certain coldness) will keep watch on the state of the world, and where the limits are reached, he will announce the old world's end.

There are some other divinities which are named as the white ones, and one of them is Shiva. Once again I see here the symbolism of the "lawful" focus point of the middle (seen as White), and the "chaotic" circumference (seen as Black). The cord uniting them at every moment are the energies that can be seen as Red as blood or as rainbow-hued as a celestial sign of covenant, considering again what is the context.

The middle point = the esoteric world of gods; the point [EDIT: cord] in the middle = the rainbow bridge. Chaotic circumference is here the samsara of incarnated beings, the world of men, where things are temporal i.e. time-bound. I'd even so far as to say that our world is Ragnarök; that death of gods is a state in planes of dimensions of thought and not in time.

So, what little I have heard about Heimdall puts him in connection of Lucifer-Azazel (White-Red) guardianship in SOA's terminology. He seems, to me, be the "Luciferian Law" of the Scandinavian mythology, like Loki is the "Luciferian Chaos". These two aspects of manas will cancel ("kill") each other out in Ragnarök, i.e. in this world. That is the death of the redeemer which always happens in our mundane realm. They cannot exist with each other, yet they cannot exist without each other: they can only exist in the realm without time, where paradox isn't the end of things, but their very nature.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Jiva » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:05 pm

That was a really good post. There's lots to think about, but here's my initial impressions.

There is a definite link between Heimdall and Loki, one which is predominantly based on conflict. Firstly, they fight each other when Loki steals Freya's Brisingamen necklace. I'm particularly interested in this story as when Heimdall discovers Loki hidden as a seal, he himself changes into a seal for the fight. Usually the Æsir aren't the best at shape changing or disguise, whereas Loki and the Thurses are experts. This could also hint at the “two-facedness” of Heimdall.

Secondly, they are the last two gods to kill each other during Ragnarök, after which the world is engulfed in flames. In my opinion. the pairing of the gods who kill each other during Ragnarök is clearly a deliberate choice rather than an accident, which also makes me think that there was a recognised link between Heimdall and Loki. Your reply has certainly given me a lot more to think about regarding this :).
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Nefastos » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:07 pm

I am glad to hear that; I thought I was perhaps trying to fit too many things in a one single post. Even without my limited skill in English, that approach often fails in forum discussions.

If one is interested, I'd suggest reading Fosforos' page 165 in addition to this conversation and the conversation about memory we're having in Philosophy. There are several points that relate to this same thing, e.g. Azazel's destiny in fire, and this two-fold nature of ahamkâra/antahkarana or the bridge of Self between two forms of manas or mind.

Jiva wrote:Heimdall discovers Loki hidden as a seal


Similar as it was with "framing", the double meaning in this is delicious. :) As said:

I wrote:Every kind of a door, gateway, even pieces of art - especially ones with spiritual meanings seen in them, like icons & sigils - belong to such kind of an entity.


To the lawful kâma manas, the chaotic manas is found as a seal ("an amulet"):

Fosforos (footnote 115) wrote:Manas acts within kâma manas in such a way that it awakens within it a shining of, say, a picture or likeness or “an amulet,“ the vibration of which is convergent with the original formless realization.


I hope you don't take this extensive self-quoting as a sign of a bad taste here. I just think this particular subject is so deep & important that it might be insightful to bring it to these already familiar (to some of us) contexts.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Heith » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:44 pm

Good posts, thank you.

This is actually extremely helpful for me now that I finally managed to steal a moment to read this with thought. As I'm more familiar and in tune with Norse myth and terminology than any other, this also helps me to understand and shall we say, build a bridge (pun unintentional, but there we go) between this and brotherhood terminology and concepts.

As to the Aesir not being good at shapeshifting, I agree with- however, Odin is known for this ability. He often took disguises on his travels, though this falls perhaps more on the category of "deception" rather than "shapeshifting". But then again Odin's a stranger even among the Aesir, his abilities are very different from those of others. Also Frigg has a falcon-cape (although, we can ask if Frigg is just another side of Freyja, as I tend to think she is, or has been at some point).
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Jiva » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:19 pm

Nefastos wrote:I'd even so far as to say that our world is Ragnarök; that death of gods is a state in planes of dimensions of thought and not in time.
Well, I agree with you in that I consider the mythological eras of the world as descriptions of psychological states and/or physical manifestation rather than actual periods of time. However, perhaps I disagree, but if the linearity of the mythological ages is removed, then all could be considered to happen all the time i.e. a continual state of becoming/transformation.
Heith wrote:This is actually extremely helpful for me now that I finally managed to steal a moment to read this with thought. As I'm more familiar and in tune with Norse myth and terminology than any other, this also helps me to understand and shall we say, build a bridge (pun unintentional, but there we go) between this and brotherhood terminology and concepts.
Seconded.
Heith wrote:As to the Aesir not being good at shapeshifting, I agree with- however, Odin is known for this ability. He often took disguises on his travels, though this falls perhaps more on the category of "deception" rather than "shapeshifting". But then again Odin's a stranger even among the Aesir, his abilities are very different from those of others. Also Frigg has a falcon-cape (although, we can ask if Frigg is just another side of Freyja, as I tend to think she is, or has been at some point).
I agree with this too. However, I never really understood Odin's disguises as they are mostly him simply being an old man albeit with a different name. I'd completely forgotten about Frigg's falcon-cape though. However, I also link her with Freyja which also potentially links her to Gullveig.
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Nefastos » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:36 pm

Jiva wrote:Well, I agree with you in that I consider the mythological eras of the world as descriptions of psychological states and/or physical manifestation rather than actual periods of time. However, perhaps I disagree, but if the linearity of the mythological ages is removed, then all could be considered to happen all the time i.e. a continual state of becoming/transformation.


Elaborate this a little, if you don't mind. I'm not sure either whether we speak of the same or the different sides of things. :)

I think that all the mythologies can - and perhaps should - be taken as presentations of emanation process. To see them like the kabbalistic Tree of Life, where we see the whole gradual outpouring from the more "divine" states to the seemingly more mundane. But actually this cosmos is just a mandala in God's mind, and there is not time, just a lightning-flash-process of Becoming.

Perhaps I don't know enough of Norse mythology, but I'd think it can be presented in mandala/Sephirothic form, and the same could be done with other sumtotals of mythologies of any a culture. Where to put some piece of a puzzle is usually not immediately clear, but the idea is that the place can be found. And if that is true, I suggested the Ragnarök would be the outermost circle of the whole mandala, or the Malkuth part of the Sephirothic tree. So, Ragnarök's correspondencies would be our physical existence as separated beings, living in a twilight state of mind/spirit where the gods die constantly. In states of deep contemplation, exaltation, initiation, trance, or after death we'll found ourselves in other states, but our organism is basically focused on this.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Jiva » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:29 pm

Nefastos wrote:
Jiva wrote:Well, I agree with you in that I consider the mythological eras of the world as descriptions of psychological states and/or physical manifestation rather than actual periods of time. However, perhaps I disagree, but if the linearity of the mythological ages is removed, then all could be considered to happen all the time i.e. a continual state of becoming/transformation.


Elaborate this a little, if you don't mind. I'm not sure either whether we speak of the same or the different sides of things. :)
Haha, I think I tried to contract all my thoughts into one simple sentence and instead made no sense at all – a bad habit of mine :oops:.

What I was trying to refer to was that as humans we can only exist and therefore study in a linear manner, in this case, through the example of a mythological story. This one-way progression in time makes the present moment inherently more complex/disordered than the past. According to physics theories, and nicely summed up in that article I posted in the mythological curiosities thread: “...at microscopic scales, there’s nothing... that distinguishes the future from the past. Just about any experiment that we can run in a particle accelerator will look as valid seen the normal way or viewed in reverse. And what is the macroscopic universe, after all, but a collection of microscopic ones?”

Therefore, maybe by utilising the paradox of continuing to learn and reflect (and thereby making things more complex/disordered) during this journey through time, it is possible to arrive at a stage when time can be observed in either direction, similar to space, allowing one to view the symmetry of the universe in its constant state of creation/transformation/dissolution. I suppose I mean this in a way similar to a Jivanmukta, Arhat, Tzadik etc.

Tweaking Christian doctrine slightly, perhaps we were not “created in his image” but “created to conceive him in his image” or something similar.

Feel free to ridicule and/or tear holes in this post. I figured I'd elaborate a little rather than just say “no” :twisted:, although I haven't thought about this subject nearly enough.
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Jiva » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:11 pm

Nefastos wrote:I think that all the mythologies can - and perhaps should - be taken as presentations of emanation process. To see them like the kabbalistic Tree of Life, where we see the whole gradual outpouring from the more "divine" states to the seemingly more mundane. But actually this cosmos is just a mandala in God's mind, and there is not time, just a lightning-flash-process of Becoming.

Perhaps I don't know enough of Norse mythology, but I'd think it can be presented in mandala/Sephirothic form, and the same could be done with other sumtotals of mythologies of any a culture. Where to put some piece of a puzzle is usually not immediately clear, but the idea is that the place can be found. And if that is true, I suggested the Ragnarök would be the outermost circle of the whole mandala, or the Malkuth part of the Sephirothic tree. So, Ragnarök's correspondencies would be our physical existence as separated beings, living in a twilight state of mind/spirit where the gods die constantly. In states of deep contemplation, exaltation, initiation, trance, or after death we'll found ourselves in other states, but our organism is basically focused on this.
I think an organisation of Norse mythology into a Kabbalistic tree is easily possible and has actually been done. Apparently Johannes Bureus was the first to do this in the 16th or 17th century, although I've never read anything by him. However, I guess it's similar to the ideas espoused by Thomas Karlsson in Uthark – Nightside of the Runes as he seems fairly indebted to Bureus' ideas. Karlsson aligns Malkuth with Midgard – our material world – which corresponds to what you were saying. Thus the rebirth of the world after Ragnarök could correspond with re-orienting Malkuth to Da'at.

The mythological setting of Ragnarök is on the massive plains of Vigrid, which I interpret as simply a poetic way of saying it takes place everywhere. Its alternate name is Óskópnir, which possibly means "the (not yet) created", "not made" or "mismade", and is something I find really evocative.

Moderator edit: Sorry, I was alerted about the link that was here being to a copyrighted work, so I had to remove it. Apologies!
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Re: Norse Mythology/Runes

Postby Nefastos » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:47 pm

Jiva wrote:Karlsson aligns Malkuth with Midgard – our material world – which corresponds to what you were saying. Thus the rebirth of the world after Ragnarök could correspond with re-orienting Malkuth to Da'at.

The mythological setting of Ragnarök is on the massive plains of Vigrid, which I interpret as simply a poetic way of saying it takes place everywhere. Its alternate name is Óskópnir, which possibly means "the (not yet) created", "not made" or "mismade", and is something I find really evocative.


I am on extremely unsure ground here, lacking the necessary understanding both in Scandinavian and kabbalistic way of thinking. Yet, this is too interesting a subject to simply let it pass, so here's my hypothesis:

I think there are two physical worlds. Usually, they are seen as this world and its double. What I think is, that actually we live in a "double" or an unreal, "doppelgänger" world. For the theosophists, for example, the physical man is two-fold, consisting of the linga sharîra or the etheric body, and the sthûla sharîra or the physical body. The former is like a mould for the latter. Likewise - or so I think - kabbalistic Yesod is like an etheric "mould" for the more concrete, if otherwise similar, physical existence in Malkuth. I think similar types can be found in all the traditions worldwide.

So far so good. But what I personally think is that the old way of seeing the most physical as the actual "Kingdom" has become a false paradigm.

How can this be? Because, as the doctrine of cyclical emanation teaches us, our world has "coagulated" from the spirit over very long periods of time, and then, after the said process of materialization has reached its most dense state, it starts to etherize again. After very, very long periods of time, it will once again assume its primal state in spirit, but now infused with all the individualized knowledge accumulated by the manvantaric process. All this is still very theosophical and in harmony with the neoplatonic idea of emanation, I think.

The world at large is in upheaval, not in any unnatural way, but rather very naturally. All is as it should be, and what should be is, that we are re-polarizing the physical magnetism of the Yesod-Malkuth to other way around, leaving behind the most dense body. It will remain there for ages still, but how the human mind sees it, will change drastically in the coming cultures. Linga- or energy side of our "sharîra" or the physical vehicle will be in ascendance.

The same have happened in distant past to other way around, when the planetary consciousness shifted from Yesod to Malkuth, and as a relic from that distant past, we have our cast-away etheric double as our Moon; both symbolically and physically. Now that process is acted out in reverse.

So, I think the old way of thinking, where we saw our physical world as the "Middlemost realm", is coming to an end. Somewhat similarly how the early geocentric world view has given way to another that sees how our physical planet Earth is actually just an orbitant and not the centre of cosmic being.

"Reorienting Malkuth to Da'at" may be a similar process, but I think there is a difference of nuance here. Either that, or then Da'at is somehow a neutral field through which these changes in both micro- and macrocosmic scale are done. I don't know; I'm not familiar enough with the subject.

But my main idea was to say that yes, it might have been that the Ragnarök all the world's end was elsewhere before, but I think it is now in (what I think the kabbalists mean by) Malkuth.

In her process of initiation, the initiate must go through the process of leaving the physical body, and assuming the etheric body as her body of physical identification. I'm talking about the similar change in macrocosmic scale here.

In a universe that is fundamentally not dependant of time, the events are disposed by teleological and not spatial foci. So, as much as the time is an illusion, so are the three dimensions; what is real is the field of Meaning, that "Holy Spirit" of events. And thus the "mismade" field is in every possible formal point, and suffuses them all. In that way, these different interpretations might be all valid, depending on the point of the observer. All the fields of consciousness will be "mismade" at that point of summit when we're ready to absorb them back to that only that is "Good", namely, to the absolute spirit. In that way, the whole creation (Manvantara) is an act of self-immolation.

Jiva wrote:Therefore, maybe by utilising the paradox of continuing to learn and reflect (and thereby making things more complex/disordered) during this journey through time, it is possible to arrive at a stage when time can be observed in either direction, similar to space, allowing one to view the symmetry of the universe in its constant state of creation/transformation/dissolution. I suppose I mean this in a way similar to a Jivanmukta, Arhat, Tzadik etc.


It seems to me we're talking about the same thing here. And I think that at the present we're actually living a macrocosmic (I mean, planet-scale) moment of initiation. That, in turn, makes similar progress much more attainable for us individuals.

Jiva wrote:Tweaking Christian doctrine slightly, perhaps we were not “created in his image” but “created to conceive him in his image” or something similar.


A nice synchronism here; just a minute ago before I read your post in this forum I was going through my Voice of Silence commentary where this double axiom is mentioned, and thought whether or not I should add a footnote considering that part of Genesis. For much like you said, there are two creations of man included in Genesis, as occultists often point out: the creation (emanation) of Heavenly Man or Logos in the text behind the link, and the creation (evolution) of earthly man a little later.

But once again, as was with the idea of the place of Ragnarök, it's about identification; and that identification can be re-polarized. For an earthly man, Heavenly Man in himself is a possibility: but for a Heavenly Man (or a monadic Ego) the earthly man is like a vessel of clay. These two are, however, one:

Book of Dzyan (7:7) wrote:THIS IS THY PRESENT WHEEL, SAID THE FLAME TO THE SPARK. THOU ART MYSELF, MY IMAGE, AND MY SHADOW. I HAVE CLOTHED MYSELF IN THEE, AND THOU ART MY VAHAN TO THE DAY, "BE WITH US," WHEN THOU SHALT RE-BECOME MYSELF AND OTHERS, THYSELF AND ME. THEN THE BUILDERS, HAVING DONNED THEIR FIRST CLOTHING, DESCEND ON RADIANT EARTH AND REIGN OVER MEN — WHO ARE THEMSELVES. . . .


Ok, once again a mammoth post from here, I see. Well, it's nice to have some free time at last. :roll: I am sorry that for many people this post will probably sound extremely far-fetched. But this is how I see our time, a real Apocalypse (Ragnarök), bringing about "a new Heaven & new Earth".
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"

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