Sharing Your Religion

Convictions, morals, other societies and religions.
User avatar
Smaragd
Frater
Posts: 589
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:27 am

Sharing Your Religion

Postby Smaragd » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:51 pm

To what extent and in what ways do you see your religion or religous practice as ”your own”? Bringing the Left and the Right hand practices together, I wonder how and in what areas people see the connection is ideally made and what do you see is gained from sharing religious practice?
User avatar
Boreas
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:49 pm
Location: Kuopio
Contact:

Re: Sharing Your Religion

Postby Boreas » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:44 pm

Smaragd wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:51 pm
To what extent and in what ways do you see your religion or religious practice as ”your own”?
I may have some personal nuances in my practice but otherwise I don't consider anything as my own.
Smaragd wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:51 pm
Bringing the Left and the Right hand practices together, I wonder how and in what areas people see the connection is ideally made and what do you see is gained from sharing religious practice?
The connection is ideally made in the level of "principal unity", which at least for me personally is a way to balance the many extremes that I'm prone to. Sharing the same practice - for example the SoA rosary - is a fine way to connect to the collective current and gain inspiration, knowledge and wisdom from the aspirations of the collective, the whole being more than the sum of its parts.
It is by standing on the shoulders of giants one can reach for the sky.
User avatar
Cerastes
Soror
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 10:31 pm

Re: Sharing Your Religion

Postby Cerastes » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:16 am

For the longest time, my religious practice was almost completly „my own“ in the sense that it was never taken out of books or shared with anyone. The problem was that I didn’t know any other person who is interested in occultism so I started to take pride in doing my own thing, most likely there was a hidden fear of rejection connected to this.

In retrospect, this was not ideal. Occultism without any guidance and especially without a solid moral basis can be problematic or even dangerous. I think moral principles are stronger when shared with others. In this way a comparison takes place and people can correct each other consciously or unconsciously. Meanwhile I found a lot of value in occults practice from books, like the SoA rosary or the Fosforos prayers and even more value in learning from other people's experiences, not only from my own. The unification of the paths is an ongoing process, so to say. In dark times it still happens that I fall back into „screw everyone else, I’ll do this alone“.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
User avatar
Aquila
Frater
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:14 pm

Re: Sharing Your Religion

Postby Aquila » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:48 am

I think what I would call my religion is more or less common but it has some personal aspects to it. Even in the days when the idea of one shared religion was more common, I think people had their own personal idea about their own practices and religiosity, though it would have seemed everything was more uniform. In reality people used to have their own syncretistic ways to believe, adding elements from the past and what was new. As I'm no longer aiming to revitalize myself in meaning of getting rid of something I don't accept and making some "original" spirituality within me stronger, I allow heathen ways come together with some lutheran influences through the lens of Luciferianism of Star of Azazel. In the past I might have had stronger idea of inventing something original that would fit perfectly to myself but paradoxically that only happens by allowing everything that is already in there to take their new forms with possibilities of today. Not just by inventing something. I don't want to stress that kind of forced individuality anymore and prefer to agree that in the spheres of religion, there is not much to call "my own" but more or less ideas that have been circling around for long or recently realized by others with similar background and which I now happen to find the best presentation of what I feel devoted to.

Briefly I would call it personal way of practicing what is common to us all.
obnoxion
Sodalis
Posts: 1987
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 7:59 pm

Re: Sharing Your Religion

Postby obnoxion » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:57 am

Smaragd wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:51 pm
To what extent and in what ways do you see your religion or religous practice as ”your own”? Bringing the Left and the Right hand practices together, I wonder how and in what areas people see the connection is ideally made and what do you see is gained from sharing religious practice?
I see the common ground in liturgical prayer. And I see prayer as action you join in. You join in the common prayer of your tradition, but you also join in the practice of prayer in general. There is a continuous current of prayer streaming from pre-history. When I pray, I feel connected to all who pray, all who have prayed before, and, in a way, to all who will join in prayer in the future.

The most spiritually authorative sources for me are Tantric; or to be precice, Kaulic, which is a bit different thing. But such precicion is not what I stress. In a way I idealize the early non-sectarian stirrings of these currents. On the other hand I see the later domestication and internalisation as vital achievements. So a practical way I unify these two orientations is to tie my spiritual practice to my immediate surroundings. I feel I have immense spiritual space to breath and move, not unlike in shamanism or traditional witchcraft. No matter how elaborate spiritual forms I encounter, they can be reduced to sticks and stones, and lines drawn in the sand. And that is where they are the most beautiful, in all their outer roughness and inner power.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
User avatar
Nefastos
Frater
Posts: 3546
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:05 am
Location: Helsinki

Re: Sharing Your Religion

Postby Nefastos » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:54 pm

Personally I see the intimate & shared part of religiosity like the coin's two faces. They form a whole, and one cannot factually live by one alone – even though he can very well choose to show only one or the other of these sides. The world religion, meaning all spiritual practice, itself etymologically means re-connecting or bringing together again, so the modern idea of truly separate spirituality is quite a chimera. Even a pratyeka buddha "connects" in his anti-traditional practice for unity.
Aquila wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:48 am
In the past I might have had stronger idea of inventing something original that would fit perfectly to myself but paradoxically that only happens by allowing everything that is already in there to take their new forms with possibilities of today.

Good way to say it. I don't think there is anything "new" in the actual religion (/magic practice, which I see mostly the one & the same, when both act as they should). It is, after all, work with the eternal and permanent, and therefore that which changes is the part which is only instrumental. Thinking about that instrument as the thing itself would be wrong, it is only a good or bad way of reaching for something that is not about to change. By this I do not mean that the instrument does not matter; it matters a lot, but like one using a pole or a spear to hit something, he cannot be thinking about the spear, he must be thinking about the target onto which he aims.

obnoxion wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:57 am
I see the common ground in liturgical prayer. And I see prayer as action you join in. You join in the common prayer of your tradition, but you also join in the practice of prayer in general. There is a continuous current of prayer streaming from pre-history.

Beautifully evocative picture of universal buddhi i.e. love by focusing consciousness.

This also brings to mind how the common Celestial Hymns practice in the brotherhood was started as a way of getting to more telepathic/united rapport with the other members, practically meaning Boreas (Nagahel) by then. The "Tree" has branched since that, but it is great to hear that Boreas still uses a Rosary that is a modificated version of the brotherhood practice.

The Star of Azazel's practice of suggesting the exact same time for the exact same prayers to be read by the brethren when they are alone, is a very good picture of the working of the brotherhood as a whole. Seemingly separate, internally very much connected, is a very "Aquarian" way of religiosity & spiritual practice.

I think that in prayer we should try to eat our way through our personal psychological problems, to gradually attain more and more actual and awakened connection with the powers that exist both in- and outside ourselves. Permanent beings who nevertheless work (through us & everything) in the world of time, to make everything like they are themselves. So, the more we pray and learn to pray, we are more connected to everything. Prayer is also yoga or meditation, training the mind to encompass the whole energetic world quite differently. Only by doing the prayer practice ten, hundred, thousand, ten thousand and hundred thousand times the inner "muscles", doors of perception, will learn to let the majestic light in continuously. This is true sharing of religion, because my innermost self comes, in such a meditation and serving of the God/dess, the world as a whole. Usually starting with my loved ones, and my enemies (difficult relationships), for these are the beings mostly in my mind & prayers. But actually everything belongs to this sought for miracle of re-union.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
User avatar
Cerastes
Soror
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 10:31 pm

Re: Sharing Your Religion

Postby Cerastes » Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:58 pm

Nefastos wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:54 pm
Aquila wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:48 am
In the past I might have had stronger idea of inventing something original that would fit perfectly to myself but paradoxically that only happens by allowing everything that is already in there to take their new forms with possibilities of today.


Good way to say it. I don't think there is anything "new" in the actual religion (/magic practice, which I see mostly the one & the same, when both act as they should). It is, after all, work with the eternal and permanent, and therefore that which changes is the part which is only instrumental. Thinking about that instrument as the thing itself would be wrong, it is only a good or bad way of reaching for something that is not about to change. By this I do not mean that the instrument does not matter; it matters a lot, but like one using a pole or a spear to hit something, he cannot be thinking about the spear, he must be thinking about the target onto which he aims.

You are right, the term „my own“ is probably a little off since I’m not sure how much „own“ even exists on this plane. Even if the practice is not taken out of books or taught by a teacher, it is still not owned by the practicener; at least if we ask the question where it actually comes from.
Looking at it that way, it doesn't really matter whether it's in books or not. Either it works in the ascending direction for the respective person or it does not.

I find the question what really belongs to us and what really comes from ourselves very difficult. Is the human being really only an information-receiving and information-processing system?
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
User avatar
Nefastos
Frater
Posts: 3546
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:05 am
Location: Helsinki

Re: Sharing Your Religion

Postby Nefastos » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:31 pm

Cerastes wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:58 pm
I find the question what really belongs to us and what really comes from ourselves very difficult. Is the human being really only an information-receiving and information-processing system?


I think that partly the answer is in emergent "wholenesses" of complicated enough equations. Information itself is not lifeless data, but a connection to the logosic ideas, even when the mathematics are broken down to binary functions. We are machines who think that they think, and the illusion of self becomes an actuality of self, for it is united with the actuality of the self in God's monad.

(I want to think that is very much to the point of this topic, so no apologies here!)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
obnoxion
Sodalis
Posts: 1987
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 7:59 pm

Re: Sharing Your Religion

Postby obnoxion » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:34 am

Nefastos wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:54 pm
I don't think there is anything "new" in the actual religion (/magic practice, which I see mostly the one & the same, when both act as they should). It is, after all, work with the eternal and permanent, and therefore that which changes is the part which is only instrumental.
There has been a long tradition of religions battling magic and superstition. In Alanis Morrisette's words, isn't it ironic that they are now as a whole been shifted on this side of the fence with the hegemony of science? For example, there were Decadent poets who were drawn to Catholicism partly because it was seen as superstitious, magical, imaginative and wondrous. And this aura on Catholicism has hardly shifted since.

Anyway, there is a teahcing that I cherish in the Vingnanabhairava (Dharana 43/Verse 66) in Jaideva Singhs translation:

O gazelle-eyed one, by the employment of magic, supreme delight arises (in the heart of the spectator) instantenously. (In this condition of mind), Reality manifests itself.


Jaideva Singh explains that beholding the wonders of magic, ordinary consciouness can pass into a state where suddenly the essential nature of Bhairava or Supreme Reality reveals itself. He stresses the reverential awe, mute wonder, being deeply moved and experiencing ineffable joy in contemplating the wondrous, as a way to pass into this nirvikakpa state. I think this means that life - especially a vital religious life - is supposed to be wonderfuly magical in the demanding sense of the terms.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
User avatar
Smaragd
Frater
Posts: 589
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:27 am

Re: Sharing Your Religion

Postby Smaragd » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:49 pm

Very interesting points and beautiful notions from everyone. The reasons that lead me to these questions were that I personally see my own religion so connected to others that it is hard to call it my own. Yet there’s some hardship connecting the two sides in the most powerful way possible and the questions seems like they could be helpful to think about when creating, and participating in, joined practices. What notions could be taken under observation while planning such practises, so that the wonderfully magical quality of religious life can be reached ”in the demanding sense of the term”?

For example for me this magic has come very naturally when working on problems I’ve felt painfully tied to, by my past foolishness or something else very close to the personal, and thus it has become a clear mission that must be confronted. This personal attachment seems to bring momentum for things to play out. Practices with such wonderful momentum I’ve done mostly on my own and I’ve been wondering how such things could be shared - a question of how to practically see the coin itself from its sides. There’s a world of things to take notice of when we start approaching the hidden, and in the midst of our failings or half success lays the most interesting questions. Regarding the momentum, further question could be something on the lines ”how am I tied to this or that practice and what brings me on my knees here?” or from the perspective of the one creating a shared practice ”how to give space for different people to connect their most intimate ties to this practice?”. I realize this could be highly personal way of seeing and experiencing things or seeing how practices are created, but doesn’t hurt to put it out there to be compared to experiences of others. It might even spark other similar notions of how to cross the hands.

The fraternity prayers have been one of the most important practices I’ve participated, and just in case of misunderstanding, it should be mentioned that I wish not to think astral tripping and astral intoxication as some sort of measure of how ”effective” a practice is, for understanding the world would be alot better measurement if steelyards are to be drawn out.

I first pondered if I should start the topic under ’Ways of Living’ or here, but actually ’Psychich Phenomena’ could have worked too as we come to these questions of freeing up mometum from our psychic structures and the like.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests