Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
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Soror O
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

Post by Soror O »

Nefastos wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:38 am
Ave wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:44 am
Nefastos wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:52 pmSee our brotherhood's seal...

That expression is also known as narcissist smirk. 8-)

Not from a deity! :lol: Of course I can (and have) interpret god as a great narcissist & the greatest solipsist, but unlike when dealing with people, there is an inner meaning in these apparent violations of love. If we fail to understand that, we fall into the ancient folly of anthropomorphic God. The prohibition to make images of God (when taken in an occult sense) does not mean to ban outer images, but inner: we can paint or sculpt whatever kind of picture, as long as we understand it as symbolic. But in case we have in our heads or hearts the idea of a man-like God, that is the ultimate sin. Yet it is not easy get rid of that kind of thinking, and – the strangest thing as it is to say it – atheists seem to be most eager from all the people to fall into this folly. The same is true with many downward path types: they struggle & fight against some humongous heavenly father and/or mother, not fully understanding the scope of their infantile projection. Even today there are people who take Gnostic parables of the demiurge literally.

The seal of the brotherhood takes its double countenance from the old idea of Christus Pantocrator, to which "Azazel Pantocrator" (as depicted in the seal) is a complementing mirror image.
Ofcourse! And it's crucial to try to be conscious of those projections. In the last week or so (during my micro-depression) I've sensed once again how little I am really conscious of, generally speaking. (I for example have convinced myself that I really long for love - as integrity, and wholeness. But really, somewhere deep down, I still desire humane love which equals with hurt, violence and disintegration).

But anyway, it was a blasphemous comment. Blasphemy is like an arrow pointed to the gods - which reaches not the gods, but always the fool shooting the arrow.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Insanus
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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From emanation-point of view one could probably just say that the developing brain assumes it's structure to imitate some incarnating karmic intelligence or soul, but that doesn't mean much in practice unless it can be shown that changes in this soul would result in new structure and not vice versa. Maybe there will be some future consciousness-neuroplasticity-thing where some mental exercise can "heal" psychopathy (if it should be considered ill), maybe not. So far, no luck.
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Kavi
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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I don't know how and which stance I am taking but I think neuroatypicality does not necessarily mean pathological illness which needs to be fixed.
Although this discussion seems to lean more towards psychopathy than some of neuroatypicalities which I don't really view as pathological illnesses but as a neurodiversity which unfortunately have not found their time and place and space in our society.

There is a theory that people with ADHD used to be great during times of hunter-gathering but yes...now we live in different age and during that time neither did diagnosis adhd exist.

I think people with different abilities have or might have also severe inabilities in other areas.
I think each trait needs to be viewed in each situation and context without making broad assumptions.
Maybe hyper focusing during ceremonial magic can be harmful or maybe it's very good that person can attain intense focused attention to certain thing but what about rest of life when wind blows this person in different directions in this world and he forgets to eat and do laundry, for instance?

Some really need serious help and it's also grave mistake to glorify autistic spectrum, psychopathy or any other neuroatypicality but I tried to attain some kind of middle ground and make layman's perspective on this topic.
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Soror O
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Kavi wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:58 pm I don't know how and which stance I am taking but I think neuroatypicality does not necessarily mean pathological illness which needs to be fixed.
Although this discussion seems to lean more towards psychopathy than some of neuroatypicalities which I don't really view as pathological illnesses but as a neurodiversity which unfortunately have not found their time and place and space in our society.
True dat, the discussion has been more about psychology that about neuroatypicality - or like you wisely put it: neurodiversity. Like Nefastos stated, in this subject at hand we are again faced with this dilemma of defining 'pathology' (and 'typicality') , but as esoterists (and/or as thinking beings) we cannot take these definitions at face value.
Kavi wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:58 pm
There is a theory that people with ADHD used to be great during times of hunter-gathering but yes...now we live in different age and during that time neither did diagnosis adhd exist.
Years ago, I had a conversation with a mother of an autism spectrum boy at a bar. I regarded this mother to be an intelligent and wholesome person, without any questinable new age -traits (hahahah). We discussed her son and his condition. This conversation enforced my theory that autism spectrum phenomenom has an evolutionary significance. I have (in my own mind, as this theory is somewhat standing on non-existent feet) thought that autism spectrum is a still molding expression of the next step of humanity. I have been interested in the way that some autism spectrum people gather and process data and how they communicate (telepathy).

Here is a random blog post that covers autism spectrum phenomenon and ESP=extra sensory perception (the writer is herself diagnosed): https://www.athinkingpatient.com/autism ... ry-skills/
Kavi wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:58 pm I think people with different abilities have or might have also severe inabilities in other areas.
I think each trait needs to be viewed in each situation and context without making broad assumptions.
I agree. The biggest tragedy of humankind at this age is the incabability (and unwillingness) to acknowledge the wisdom and skills of individuals who are deemed (and doomed) abnormal and 'pathologic'.
Kavi wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:58 pm Some really need serious help and it's also grave mistake to glorify autistic spectrum, psychopathy or any other neuroatypicality but I tried to attain some kind of middle ground and make layman's perspective on this topic.
This is very important to add. The holistic view means that one must not put excess weight on any particular piece of the puzzle.
Insanus wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:17 pm Maybe there will be some future consciousness-neuroplasticity-thing where some mental exercise can "heal" psychopathy (if it should be considered ill), maybe not. So far, no luck.


This is why I have always been interested in psychology and psychopathology (among other reasons). I have this conviction of "mind over matter". Still, I have seen great minds crumble and fall into catatonic broken record mode. To me psychology is an occult study - for it explores the liminal spaces of humanity, and the variables that we are currently missing in this equation of human condition. I firmly believe that in the future consciousness skills will be more widely and efficiently used in treatment of mental disorders.
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

Post by Angolmois »

Ave wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:59 amI firmly believe that in the future consciousness skills will be more widely and efficiently used in treatment of mental disorders.
I believe so too, and there is already some kind of consciousness work done in mental asylums. In Finland there is also one place - in Oulu, if I remember correctly - where they try to help people without mind numbing medication.

I can only speak for myself naturally, but for me spirituality - meditation, prayer etc. - has been THE thing that has helped me to rise up from the muddy waters of depression and lack of meaning and motivation.
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Polyhymnia
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

Post by Polyhymnia »

Nefastos wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:47 am
Smaragd wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:24 pmOften times my empathy (if it can be called that) isn’t the kind where emotions are obviously present.

I would even say that the feelings are not the most important part of empathy. They can even become a substitute for actual empathy. By "empathy" I mean most of all compassion, the living conviction of buddhic unity, which ardently seeks to help. To lessen the suffering of the world. Once discovered, this buddhic understanding is like an ever-burning torch. In case one confuses empathy as compassion and love with feelings, its outer veil, problems will arise.


I would have never thought that feelings and empathy could be separated. This gives me a whole new lens under which to view empathy as a whole. Sometimes while empathizing with a specific situation I will become frozen or sick with sadness. Though I am able to overcome this with some quiet, inner work, I identified it as a part of the empathy. I think this separation (empathy/feelings) will help me work through it quicker, and with practice, to a place where maybe I won't need to work through it at all.

Kavi wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:58 pm
I think people with different abilities have or might have also severe inabilities in other areas.
I think each trait needs to be viewed in each situation and context without making broad assumptions.
Maybe hyper focusing during ceremonial magic can be harmful or maybe it's very good that person can attain intense focused attention to certain thing but what about rest of life when wind blows this person in different directions in this world and he forgets to eat and do laundry, for instance?

I think so much of everything lies on a spectrum that you're right each trait, and not only each trait but each extent of the trait, would need to be examined on a case by case basis. For example, I'm diagnosed ADHD, but I don't think many people would jump to that conclusion immediately upon meeting me. Or even spending ample amounts of time with me. I've turned down the medication for it, and for the most part it's manageable, but I'm prone to bouts of mania. It doesn't affect my Work, specifically, but it allows me to hyper focus on, say, article editing. The downside is that the mania feels unstoppable when it starts, though I am generally able to keep it under control. It sometimes makes me feel as though I'm more susceptible to some of those pesky "husks" of entities. But this was just to show only one example of how ADHD can look within the realm of spiritualism.
Ave wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:14 am
I was thinking particulary psychopathy and pondering could I for example date a person knowing he was a psychopath.
My first husband was actually diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder/psychopathy. Bundled with crippling narcissism (absent mother who was abusive the small amount she was present), the marriage clearly didn't end well. What I find jarring to this day is how very charming he was, in spite of how cruel and sometimes sadistic he could be. It's as though he can mimic true emotion, but I seriously doubt he can feel any. Or, I suppose a better way to put it would be he can feel emotion, but is unable to act on it with any sort of compassion. Mostly just with anger and cruel acts. A cautionary tale, but not one meaning to shut down the case for dating someone whose diagnosis is psychopathy. Just one example of how it could look.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Nefastos
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Polyhymnia wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:31 pmI would have never thought that feelings and empathy could be separated. This gives me a whole new lens under which to view empathy as a whole. Sometimes while empathizing with a specific situation I will become frozen or sick with sadness. Though I am able to overcome this with some quiet, inner work, I identified it as a part of the empathy. I think this separation (empathy/feelings) will help me work through it quicker, and with practice, to a place where maybe I won't need to work through it at all.

For me, too much emotional empathy is not paralyzing, but equally badly or even worse, it starts to turn those positive feelings as negative when they become unbearable. I spoke of this "love turning to hatred" lately in the involuntary celibacy thread: the aspect is different but the inner (al-)chemistry the same. Too much anything, even love or compassion, breaks the vessel.

I think that these are two directions for love or empathy. "Emotional compassion" is the buddhic presence or reflection in kâma, "idealism of compassion" is buddhi in its triadic union with âtma-manas. While it is possible that the former (element of feeling) is not there, because of any reasons, the latter can be even simulated & thus invoked, and this is much more important. Whatever man's pathology, he can work the latter, and it can be even more heroic, if there is no feeling connected to it, and therefore no "reward of feeling good" for the good deeds either.

Polyhymnia wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:31 pmI think so much of everything lies on a spectrum that you're right each trait, and not only each trait but each extent of the trait, would need to be examined on a case by case basis. For example, I'm diagnosed ADHD, but I don't think many people would jump to that conclusion immediately upon meeting me. Or even spending ample amounts of time with me. I've turned down the medication for it, and for the most part it's manageable, but I'm prone to bouts of mania. It doesn't affect my Work, specifically, but it allows me to hyper focus on, say, article editing. The downside is that the mania feels unstoppable when it starts, though I am generally able to keep it under control. It sometimes makes me feel as though I'm more susceptible to some of those pesky "husks" of entities. But this was just to show only one example of how ADHD can look within the realm of spiritualism.

Personally I do not like to think psychological things as abnormal or atypical in a way that there would be some "normal" and not pathological human condition. We are all composed of pathological, traumatic and atypical psychical components. The other, apparently darker side of this in a way lenient approach of mine is that I also never think that someone's condition is what makes her do something: it never removes the responsibility. For if we start to think that someone's condition made her do what she did, what would be the end of this thinking? Where ultimately is that "free will", available for some & not to others with different condition? There is no such; we are all patients here.

Roman Catholics have a good way of announcing their guilt in confession: mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. (= It is me who is guilty.) It is like the last word of this thinking where to put the guilt: it is, ultimately, always only mine; I cannot blame the others, or my situation or my pathology, of my transgressions. They are mine to bear, if I am an individual at all.

Polyhymnia wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:31 pmMy first husband was actually diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder/psychopathy. Bundled with crippling narcissism (absent mother who was abusive the small amount she was present), the marriage clearly didn't end well. What I find jarring to this day is how very charming he was, in spite of how cruel and sometimes sadistic he could be. It's as though he can mimic true emotion, but I seriously doubt he can feel any. Or, I suppose a better way to put it would be he can feel emotion, but is unable to act on it with any sort of compassion. Mostly just with anger and cruel acts. A cautionary tale, but not one meaning to shut down the case for dating someone whose diagnosis is psychopathy. Just one example of how it could look.

It is usual in occultism that the best and the worst bear likeness to each other (like the Emerald Tablet says). This also brings to mind that the adept, who sees his lower self as a veritable mask, is not so different to narcissist. The reason is the opposite, but it seems quite the same. And I think that this can also be one of the reasons why some people start to feel uncanny when they are near such adepts: they are no longer human beings in the same way as the others, and this can be either uplifting or very scary, depending on how the others take their own humanity. (Is it about developing, or is the status quo most important factor of life.)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Nefastos wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:37 pm
Personally I do not like to think psychological things as abnormal or atypical in a way that there would be some "normal" and not pathological human condition. We are all composed of pathological, traumatic and atypical psychical components. The other, apparently darker side of this in a way lenient approach of mine is that I also never think that someone's condition is what makes her do something: it never removes the responsibility. For if we start to think that someone's condition made her do what she did, what would be the end of this thinking? Where ultimately is that "free will", available for some & not to others with different condition? There is no such; we are all patients here.

Roman Catholics have a good way of announcing their guilt in confession: mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. (= It is me who is guilty.) It is like the last word of this thinking where to put the guilt: it is, ultimately, always only mine; I cannot blame the others, or my situation or my pathology, of my transgressions. They are mine to bear, if I am an individual at all.
I definitely don't think people shouldn't take responsibility for their actions, using a diagnosis of psychological condition as a scape goat for certain behaviour, but I do think a diagnosis can be helpful in identifying the work that needs to be done in one's self to combat the energies that said psychological conditions can harbour. I would like to think that the end of that thinking is where the individual takes accountability for their actions, with the understanding that it is their responsibility to move forward. Of course, this is from a very idealistic lens. I think that most people find taking responsibility to be a very tedious task, and one, unfortunately, that can often easily be deliberately neglected for the sake of ease. I am curious to what you'd think would be the driving factor behind something like a manic episode. The way I experience them is a very intense, overwhelming energy for bursts of time, usually stemming from when things feel outrageously disordered.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

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Polyhymnia wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:46 pmbut I do think a diagnosis can be helpful in identifying the work that needs to be done in one's self to combat the energies that said psychological conditions can harbour.

That is, of course, important & true. I think that the sometimes emerging attitude of hiding things in pathologies – outer "absolute" problems, which are so much more easier to understand as blocks & tags – would disappear, should there be also more sets for "healthy" behaviour. To show how different people can be, in good & bad, assets & handicaps, without there being one rigid normal. The problem is mostly sociological, but it also has some roots in the lack of spiritualism: people become their labels, if nothing palpable is seen under them.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Neuroatypicality - an esoteric view

Post by Soror O »

Polyhymnia wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:31 pm My first husband was actually diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder/psychopathy. (...) It's as though he can mimic true emotion, but I seriously doubt he can feel any. Or, I suppose a better way to put it would be he can feel emotion, but is unable to act on it with any sort of compassion.
Yeah. I'd say the mimicing of emotions is one of the most mind fucking aspects of this phenomenon. Because we are hardwired to assume that emotions have a "pure" substance. Mimicing emotions/ using emotions to manipulate other people is not limited to psychopaths, by any means. They just have taken it to a whole new level.
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