Theistic Satanism/ the act of worship

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
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Soror O
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Theistic Satanism/ the act of worship

Post by Soror O »

Dear old, Dear old
(Please do erase this thread, if a similar one already exists. I tried to use the search, but couldn't find one.)

To me worship has, in it's exoteric forms, been a quite unfamiliar form of faith. Momentarily, I might have had this "worshipping attitude" towards some things/ beings as I have regarded them embodying deities/ spirits that evoke awe and respect. Still I have never given myself wholly into worship. I've been too grand of a god myself, haha.

I sense that giving in into worship could bridge submissiveness and dominance into a Whole.

What constitutes the act of worship?
What is your personal experience of worship?
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Smaragd
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Re: Theistic Satanism/ the act of worship

Post by Smaragd »

Ave wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:16 am I've been too grand of a god myself, haha.

I sense that giving in into worship could bridge submissiveness and dominance into a Whole.
For me worshipping Satan has an aspect that indeed worships this too grand of a god in self. Isn’t the too pride to bow elegancy touching the majesty of this entity? It is not always I can make that connection and struggle in my worship. Lately I’ve found myself praying in deep bow touching the ground, as Dostoevsky might spell it, and there is a curious interaction going on in my identity where in the other hand my body and lower principles are bowing down, the one I’m bowing down to I also see as myself, although it is evasive in many ways and… I almost wrote mysterious (although so is my body and other lower principles), maybe ’in the air’ is more precise. (Finnish word for spirit is ’henki’, from which the verb for breathing ’hengittää’ is derived from.) Thus judging by my own experiences, the submissivenes and dominance indeed come together in such worship.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Beshiira
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Re: Theistic Satanism/ the act of worship

Post by Beshiira »

I've thought about this too, and had my hardships with the word ”worship” as well. It might be in this case once again, that the predefined meanings of such words are the biggest obstacle. Some very caricature-like images easily come to mind when thinking about worship.

Ave wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:16 amI sense that giving in into worship could bridge submissiveness and dominance into a Whole.
I would say that this is precisely it. This is in a way the Left Hand Path and the Right Hand Path coming together in a nutshell. While someone following the LHP is ”their own god”, I believe that the RHP realization is just as crucial – understanding ones smallness before something unfathomably larger. Pride and humbleness in unison. Then worship could be seen as an act to align oneself with this divinity. I too see a strong connection to prayer here – an active step towards divinity (or the higher self, if you will). An act more than a gesture. A way to channel those senses of awe, gratitude etc., but also a practical way to grow.

And I can also easily agree with the idea that we do, in fact, always worship something anyway. Whatever it is that we lean towards, spend our time on... Knowingly or not. Luckily we do seem to have a say in what kinds of voices to follow.

Regarding worshiping Satan in particular – I share the view (mentioned many times elsewhere) that all our images and conceptions of the Divine are in a way ”satanic” (as also hinted in the Idolatry thread). That Satan - or the God-Satan/Lucifer-Christos union - seems to be the most wholesome ”idol” there is (or something like an ”idol to transcend idols”), and a theistic satanist simply doesn't exclude this other half from his/her worship. What this worship is then, in practice, is basically just striving to live according to this inner inspiration or ”voice”, I feel. Then I guess prayer could be seen as a kind of ”condensed worship”.
"Ja kun minun kirkkauteni kulkee ohitse, asetan minä sinut kallion rotkoon ja peitän sinut kädelläni, kunnes olen kulkenut ohi.
Kun minä sitten siirrän pois käteni, näet sinä minun selkäpuoleni; mutta minun kasvojani ei voi kenkään katsoa."
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Soror O
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Re: Theistic Satanism/ the act of worship

Post by Soror O »

Smaragd wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:50 pm For me worshipping Satan has an aspect that indeed worships this too grand of a god in self. Isn’t the too pride to bow elegancy touching the majesty of this entity? It is not always I can make that connection and struggle in my worship. Lately I’ve found myself praying in deep bow touching the ground, as Dostoevsky might spell it, and there is a curious interaction going on in my identity where in the other hand my body and lower principles are bowing down, the one I’m bowing down to I also see as myself, although it is evasive in many ways and… I almost wrote mysterious (although so is my body and other lower principles), maybe ’in the air’ is more precise. (Finnish word for spirit is ’henki’, from which the verb for breathing ’hengittää’ is derived from.) Thus judging by my own experiences, the submissivenes and dominance indeed come together in such worship.
It's valuable to hear your experience, Smaragd. Your words led me to think about body movements and their correspondence to psychic events - and their allegorical potency. For example, in a bow the body descents and then ascents. The humanoid mammal dwells in the body and conscious body movements are truly a potential bridge between this animal and the divine being. Body movements are kind of magical - they play an important part in creating reality. Different postures have been widely used in religious traditions as we all know. I have to remind myself that postures are not something that bear trancendent meaning only in some isolated "religious realm" but also in everyday life - or more precisely put, the religious realm is the everyday life and vice versa. Being conscious about the way one carries himself can lead to important realizations.
Beshiira wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:09 pm I've thought about this too, and had my hardships with the word ”worship” as well. It might be in this case once again, that the predefined meanings of such words are the biggest obstacle. Some very caricature-like images easily come to mind when thinking about worship.
Indeedo! The word is ladden with not-so-admirable connotations - as all important words are nowadays. It has been only lately when I've realized how I have let these misleading connotations sink in, without really giving a second though about the subject. This rejective attitude towards worship has also been due to my own incompletedness, stubborness and false pride.
Beshiira wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:09 pm I too see a strong connection to prayer here – an active step towards divinity (or the higher self, if you will). An act more than a gesture. A way to channel those senses of awe, gratitude etc., but also a practical way to grow.
Yes, the words 'active' and 'an act' pinpoint something important. Here an act is not an act like in "putting up an act" - but act like in making something actual. I think that worship (which can include prayer, depending on the definition) is a form of active engagement with Satan (God). I've been greatly interested in vital, lively, form of faith. Lively faith penetrates the whole human experince - therefore the philosophical and rational standpoint alone is not enough (for me).

Also, I've realized that my psychological tools alone are not enough for me to bridge the gap between me and my internalized otherness. I've always sought dominance over my shadow and there: Satan/God. Never really understanding that warring against God/Satan could be some serious waste of time. I've given in only party, but it's not enough... I long for total submission. Giving in to Satan doesn't mean giving in to evil, but giving in to light.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Aperiemus
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Re: Theistic Satanism/ the act of worship

Post by Aperiemus »

There is a strand of finnish lutheran religiosity which I seem to continuously have a problem with, whenever I encounter it. I'm talking about a cluster of ideas and attitudes towards spirituality and (everyday) life. In my reading, one prominent aspect of this cluster is a view about grace, in which the grace acts as quick fix for all internal dissonance/struggle. It seems that the possibilities of personal growth (which internal pain or dilemma can initiate if handled with care and patience) are smothered by jumping straight in to the arms of Christ. The act of worship is then a worship of this miraculous medicine that makes all the pain go away by substitution.

Then again it seems that many of the people who act this way are unable to see any other possibilities. They have either grown accustomed to doing so by habit (for example through their bringing-up), or that it is the only way they can function within a society (this brings to mind the Serenity Prayer used in Twelve-step programs). For the former, I have less sympathy, and whenever I think of the events of worship I've witnessed, where it seems clear that people are well off, it all seems so symptomatic. That this is not worship per se, but an elaborate sweeping of the unwanted debris under the carpet.
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Soror O
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Re: Theistic Satanism/ the act of worship

Post by Soror O »

Aperiemus wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:07 am There is a strand of finnish lutheran religiosity which I seem to continuously have a problem with, whenever I encounter it. I'm talking about a cluster of ideas and attitudes towards spirituality and (everyday) life. In my reading, one prominent aspect of this cluster is a view about grace, in which the grace acts as quick fix for all internal dissonance/struggle. It seems that the possibilities of personal growth (which internal pain or dilemma can initiate if handled with care and patience) are smothered by jumping straight in to the arms of Christ. The act of worship is then a worship of this miraculous medicine that makes all the pain go away by substitution.

Then again it seems that many of the people who act this way are unable to see any other possibilities. They have either grown accustomed to doing so by habit (for example through their bringing-up), or that it is the only way they can function within a society (this brings to mind the Serenity Prayer used in Twelve-step programs). For the former, I have less sympathy, and whenever I think of the events of worship I've witnessed, where it seems clear that people are well off, it all seems so symptomatic. That this is not worship per se, but an elaborate sweeping of the unwanted debris under the carpet.
If a genie would emerge and offer you an opportunity to receive this quick fix grace which would somehow make you oblivious to internal struggle would you receive it?
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Aperiemus
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Re: Theistic Satanism/ the act of worship

Post by Aperiemus »

Ave wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:03 pm If a genie would emerge and offer you an opportunity to receive this quick fix grace which would somehow make you oblivious to internal struggle would you receive it?
A quick fix grace, which would make all the feelings of guilt and shame away, and solve all the difficult choices in life for you? Hypothetically if the situation would be just that, I wouldn't hesitate to say no. It feels somehow selfish to have that quick fix grace while everyone else around you is burning. However when I thought of that idea it occurred to me that I would probably hesitate if this aforesaid genie would offer to take off the internal struggles of everyone. Then the dilemma would be that is there something in this internal struggle that makes us what we are and whether I would ever be sure about a chain of rationalization behind it to make such decision. It seems to me, now at least, that the "point of suffering" can only be understood in some manasic sense, and bringing it down to the languages and logics of kama manas is either impossible to do without corrupting the original message, or then I'm yet unaware of how it could be done.
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Re: Theistic Satanism/ the act of worship

Post by Nefastos »

Lovely to speak about this particular thing, thank you for starting the thread Ave.

It is one of the weird mysteries of life & psychology that I have never had any aversion towards "worship". Of course, when I was still a child, "worshipping Satan" (or anything at all) was simply a matter for some easy laughs, and it didn't enter into my dreams that I could ever be such an utmost weirdo myself. But when my old self came crumbling down in the teenage years, when the older Ego emerged in its (relative) totality & demanded total submission to spirituality as something that was not matter of any kind of discussion but a simple absolute, I just became a "worshipper". First a one of (mystics' universal) God, and later Satan, when He had torn (kissed?) me enough that I once again had no other possibility but to see the terrible majesty of absolute anguish that is the dark face of God.

For me, divinities are simply so great and deep experiences, that I cannot "choose" whether to worship or not. It's like showing someone a kilometer deep canyon and ask, would you like to crush to pieces if you fall down there? Perhaps not, but that is what I must do. Or ask, would you like to see an immense depth of thousands of stars and galaxies these feet of flesh will never trod on, when looking upwards to the night sky? Perhaps not, but that is what there is. (Even if one chooses not to believe in galaxies, he still must face the majesty of crystallium, and the awe remains basically the same.) Et cetera. For me, world is a Terrible place, something that is too deep, too intense, too everything to handle. Every moment is either deep anguish or deep intellectual ecstasy, or usually both. A world like that cannot be taken in a neutral, anthropocentric way; its mystery must be worshipped.

One can naturally suggest that that kind of seeing the world is only pathological; some problem of nerves. And yes, that clearly is one side of the situation. But if one has only glimpsed that kind of reality even once, he sees that that reality is the true depth of being, and the surface where we can remain human beings in our diminutive profane world is the one which is actually more pathological, for it is almost total blindness. Michelangelo's David is more than marble, Sappho's poem is more than black ink on paper, and the world is filled with divine frenzy of God. But as long as that frenzy is as violent, cruel & painful as it now is, the most honest form of worship is (for me) the one of theistic Satanism.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Soror O
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Re: Theistic Satanism/ the act of worship

Post by Soror O »

I'm grateful for getting to read your experience, Nefastos. When someone describes his experience this eloquently and vitally it's in it self like a peak into the Abyss.
Nefastos wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:54 pm For me, divinities are simply so great and deep experiences, that I cannot "choose" whether to worship or not.
I have tought about this choosing matter lately. And I have realized that I don't choose Satan. He chooses me, when He decides. If I'd be choosing Him - it would be nothing but a larp. I've think about building an altar. But an altar is not something that can be made by putting together conveniet stuff. I don't know why, but I'd like to see myself as an altar which He has organized
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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Soror O
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Re: Theistic Satanism/ the act of worship

Post by Soror O »

Aperiemus wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:07 am (...) is there something in this internal struggle that makes us what we are and whether I would ever be sure about a chain of rationalization behind it to make such decision.
For some reason this reminded me of Samuel Beckett's Unnamable:

It will be the silence,
where I am?

I don’t know, I’ll never know:
in the silence you don’t know.

You must go on.

I can’t go on.

I’ll go on.
If you want to reborn, let yourself die.
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