Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
Angolmois

Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age

Post by Angolmois »

As I have no initiatic pretensions but only very limited doctrinal knowledge of the matter the answers to few of your questions are completely hypothetical.
Ave wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:59 pm I have only questions to you, answer if you like:

If you were hypotetically to receive/undergo an initiation that you could know to be 100% valid, what would it be like?
This might be the only question that I'm qualified to answer to some extent. From what I know it would change my being in a very drastic and permanent way (via metanoia) as an ethical and spiritual being. From life to "more than life", from a created being to a master of my own destiny, through the portals of super-human evolution into immortality.
Ave wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:59 pmWho could be the initiator/Master? How you would recognize him? What tradition would (s)he represent (if any)? What kind of relation you'd be with each other? In what time/space location would the initiation take place? In what dimension?
I have no answers to any of these questions.
Ave wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:59 pmOr, hypotetically again, if you'd know for certain that spiritual initiation is impossible during the Kali Yuga, what would it mean regarding your spiritual work? Would it be in vain?
As I believe in re-incarnation, nothing ever done with eternity in mind is in vain and initiation is the accomplishment of lifetimes of effort, it would mean that the current work is preparatory in nature. And because I know for certain that because of my illness the doors of initiation remain closed for me in this incarnation (psychic instabilities being a real obstacle for qualification for certain), my current spiritual work is also preparatory both in doctrinal and practical sense. There is spiritual progress even without initiation and it is my self-imposed duty to grow as a human being.
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Soror O
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age

Post by Soror O »

Boreas wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:27 am And because I know for certain that because of my illness the doors of initiation remain closed for me in this incarnation (psychic instabilities being a real obstacle for qualification for certain), my current spiritual work is also preparatory both in doctrinal and practical sense. There is spiritual progress even without initiation and it is my self-imposed duty to grow as a human being.
Like someone once said: "the gods do not fit into a weak vessel." But what is weakness, really... ?

To me, initiation is an ongoing process. Trancendenting humanity is a birth right to all of us. It's natural - something that cannot be tamed or put into fixed form. Therefore I don't put that much weight on formal initiation. Also I feel that I can access the collective wisdom of humankind (and all its traditions) with my soul - and not be bound by time/space on that. The cycles of time cannot erase this possibility, they merely make this feature somewhat different to use at times.

Although the traditionalists can be credited for pointing out the foolishness of modern age, with this initiation subject they seem to fall into romantical paternalism which to me is quite phoney (yet, in a kinky way, appealing).

EDIT/typos
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obnoxion
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age

Post by obnoxion »

Ave wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:25 am Although the traditionalists can be credited for pointing out the foolishness of modern age, with this initiation subject they seem to fall into romantical paternalism which to me is quite phoney (yet, in a kinky way, appealing).
I think I pretty much agree. I am an avid reader of many Traditionalist writers. What I most appreciate is their treatment of sacred symbolism. That is the strength of the movement. But I completey disagree with their dogmatic rejection of post-renaissance art. Their univocality on this topic comes across almost like self-parody. Their strong stance on art is understandable, though, if we remember that the whole movement was begun with art criticism.

But as Boreas said, he didn't intented to make this topic about Traditionalism. We have a separate topic for that, and I am certainly not up for the debate.
Boreas wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:27 am As I believe in re-incarnation, nothing ever done with eternity in mind is in vain and initiation is the accomplishment of lifetimes of effort, it would mean that the current work is preparatory in nature. And because I know for certain that because of my illness the doors of initiation remain closed for me in this incarnation (psychic instabilities being a real obstacle for qualification for certain), my current spiritual work is also preparatory both in doctrinal and practical sense. There is spiritual progress even without initiation and it is my self-imposed duty to grow as a human being.
This commands my complete respect. When one is bearing a cross, there cannot be much wiggle room. A rigorous reading of Guenon must be a great support on the way.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age

Post by Aquila »

Boreas wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:27 am
Ave wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:59 pmOr, hypotetically again, if you'd know for certain that spiritual initiation is impossible during the Kali Yuga, what would it mean regarding your spiritual work? Would it be in vain?
As I believe in re-incarnation, nothing ever done with eternity in mind is in vain and initiation is the accomplishment of lifetimes of effort, it would mean that the current work is preparatory in nature. And because I know for certain that because of my illness the doors of initiation remain closed for me in this incarnation (psychic instabilities being a real obstacle for qualification for certain), my current spiritual work is also preparatory both in doctrinal and practical sense. There is spiritual progress even without initiation and it is my self-imposed duty to grow as a human being.
I can relate to this and mostly think that what initiation mostly is today, it is a constant widening of our understanding. I don't mean understanding only on some issues that would demand belief in something but in our understanding of life, humanity and everything within and around us. It is not limited into any certain sphere of life but it is very holistic instead.

Speaking of unorthodox ways that Satanism might follow, I personally have mostly quit believing in something except the most crucial ethical doctrines (for example the sevenfold basis of SoA). Of course this is quite ambivalent but what I mean with believing in this context is the belief that sets the objects of belief within some rigid rules set by us and our fallible reasoning. Because of this I can't believe in too rigid forms of initiations either or that they would often happen in any spontaneous sudden moments granted by a suddenly appearing divine being. I think that they follow very complex psychological, cultural and personal ways that are set within periods that include lifetimes. But then one has to ask what is a lifetime but only a little spontaneous moment and blink of an eye in the timescales of the existence. Our view on such things as time, our place in the whole existence etc. are so subjective and relative that it gets difficult to seriously believe in the possibility of someone being initiated except in a very limited meaning of the word. For example, some new age person might be initiated into his/her energy healing profession after a (quite expensive!) course held by some teacher of the subject. But looking at the actions of these people from certain distance, you can only wonder how they can be so arrogant, ignorant, paranoid and childish at the same time. I don't mean to judge those people but only point at what the initiation often seems to be. It is an initiation into believing in something even more strongly instead of gaining more perspective and understanding. Anyone can fall into such traps of belief. And once again I repeat that the word belief is used in very limited sense here.

A person can initiate oneself but only in the meaning of following the long stairway of lifetimes. The borders between oneself, the other, the divine etc. also get quite thin and irrelevant in this case. Personally I have no hopes of being initiated like I once probably had. It was only a false sense of pride and aiming at something above humanity by believing strongly. Now I accept that it's a long way to go and I have to learn to live as a human and accept what it means. I had knowledge of this already before but it was only words back then and not real understanding. There was always the hidden will of becoming something great instead of something as mundane as living responsibly, learning to live as a human and accepting others as well.
Angolmois

Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age

Post by Angolmois »

Ave wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:25 amTrancendenting humanity is a birth right to all of us. It's natural - something that cannot be tamed or put into fixed form.
In potential, yes, but in practice this would be equal for the view that everyone can be a genius. It is false egalitarianism to claim that. No, initiation is a calling and there are requirements for it. Not everyone is called for pure knowledge which is what initiation is about. "Many are called but few are chosen." It can be said that everyone is called and entitled for "salvation", but only a few have access to total liberation - it is simply the way things are even by a cursory glance.
Ave wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:25 amTherefore I don't put that much weight on formal initiation.
I think initiation can never be only formal or technical, but it is one side of the issue and not to be neglected. How it will take place i have no clue.
Ave wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:25 amAlso I feel that I can access the collective wisdom of humankind (and all its traditions) with my soul - and not be bound by time/space on that. The cycles of time cannot erase this possibility, they merely make this feature somewhat different to use at times.
Certainly sapiental wisdom is meant for all peoples, times and places. "Knowledge is better divulged than forgotten."
Ave wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:25 amAlthough the traditionalists can be credited for pointing out the foolishness of modern age, with this initiation subject they seem to fall into romantical paternalism which to me is quite phoney (yet, in a kinky way, appealing).
Even if one rejects the traditionalist thesis (narrative?), I think if you'll study Guénon's treatises about the subject (Initiation & Spiritual Realization and Perspectives on Initiation), there is nothing romantic or paternalistic in them. And I'll assure you, you will learn a lot of very useful things.
obnoxion wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:32 amA rigorous reading of Guenon must be a great support on the way.
He is one of the best teachers of modern times I think, but there are still problems. One of them is that one will become a mummified old fart if one takes him as it is. No one should be taken without a grain of salt, and as I have studied more from him, I have noticed a certain "kama-manasic saturation" which can be very harmful. (I think Guénon would be horrified of the fact that a Luciferian claims him as one of his teachers!)
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age

Post by Nefastos »

Aquila wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:13 pmI can relate to this and mostly think that what initiation mostly is today, it is a constant widening of our understanding. I don't mean understanding only on some issues that would demand belief in something but in our understanding of life, humanity and everything within and around us. It is not limited into any certain sphere of life but it is very holistic instead.


This is what I think too: that the only meaningful initiations today are the initiations to the secrets of wholeness. Fra Kavi referred to the degrees in music, and I'd like to liken initiations to artistic degrees as well: there is no institution that can make one an artist, but institutions can very well help one in his way in such a process. Their initiations are initiations for one's instruments, instead of the innermost soul itself. Such is the role of all the Right Hand Path systems, by which I mean any a system that has a sociological function, a united ritual and doctrine. Such schools (should) try to help one to become holistically better & more sound a person, which in turn brings actual empowerment (en-lightening) when seen from above, the bird's eye view of the true masters who can see in and through spiritual reality. What semiesoteric brotherhoods actually manage to do varies greatly, naturally. "Counter-initiations" are the the one which make one more powerful in his profane mind, strengthening and intensifying most of all our psychological shells of self-deception (for example in the way Aquila mentioned, or in some even subtler way).

Boreas wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:53 pmwhat kind of possibilities for initiation outside the regular transmission and "apostolic" succesion of the traditional initiatic organisations do you see?

Like I said, I think in these what is initiated are the instruments of the trade. E.g. in freemasonry, one is left alone with certain tools, to use or understand, or not. They can help one to go onwards, or backwards, or sideways. To the degree they hold true connection to some or other actual adept, they may channel that amount of actual initiating power. Most often this connection comes close to zero, though.

Boreas wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:53 pmDo you think that self-initiation is possible, excluding the most frivolous new age doctrines?

Yes. All those original initiates starting the lines now considered as orthodox & traditionally valid must come from somewhere, do they? But "the tree is known from its fruits", and there is most likely ten thousand or more of false initiates to one true self-enlightened one. We should never stop looking.

Boreas wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:53 pmIs there such a thing as spontaneous initiation?

No, but there most likely are initiations that seem to come to pass spontaneously, after a tremendous load of succesful & systematic work. Thus the initiation is "spontaneous" only on this level, but very consistent and build-up on the others. There are spontaneous empowerments and sparks of understanding, but unless they hit the soil that is made ready beforehand, they will not bring lasting change.

Boreas wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:53 pmHow do we establish contact with the supreme center of all initiation without the help of a regular organisation that is the transmitter and depository of the initiatic doctrine?

Spiritual world, which is the world whereto true initiation helps us to enter, is always connected to the soul of the individual. The connection is never severed, the sole question is whether the connection is like an eye of the needle, or like a portal to go through with one's energetical whole. In every human being there is an "initiate" already in-dwelling, and with him we can make contact. In time, such a contact will create also a harmonious vibration with initiate orders outside.

Boreas wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:53 pmWhat kind of possibilities do you see for initiation in the post-modern age?

In a way I believe, like fra Aperiemus said, that one must be created anew. Old systems no longer work, and also the work of separated individuals are doomed. But when such a work is tried out, man is not alone in it, as long as he does not make it for himself solely, but for the whole. This therefore becomes one of the most suitable dharmas of our time.

Boreas wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:53 pmAre we all doomed to dabble in the darkness of the post-modern world without any hope?

Well, in a way, yes. But this also is part of a larger plan. Would the initiate orders of the past be so infallible, how could they have fallen? On this side of the creation, we only have humanity, and this will not change. Together we can help each others to reach for something greater, though.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age

Post by Angolmois »

Aquila wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:13 pmIt was only a false sense of pride and aiming at something above humanity by believing strongly. Now I accept that it's a long way to go and I have to learn to live as a human and accept what it means. I had knowledge of this already before but it was only words back then and not real understanding. There was always the hidden will of becoming something great instead of something as mundane as living responsibly, learning to live as a human and accepting others as well.
There is wisdom in this! I have never accepted that I should be only human - a created, finite being with a limited understanding - and yes, there is pride involved saying that, but also a very real sense of being potentially something else altogether. In my youth it lead me to some sort of Nietzschean übermensch ideals, but once I started with esoteric studies it became clear that there is actually a living thread of Gnosis throughout humanity that has felt the same serpent bite. This also made me very humble at the same time, since the requirements of that calling are so tremendous that it makes one shake. God knows I've tried to jump over those steps and have not accepted my simple humanity, and there have been mistakes, even serious ones, that I have made on the way. But the impulse is right in its own place even if its tinged with (false) pride in the beginning of the path.
Nefastos wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:10 pm Would the initiate orders of the past be so infallible, how could they have fallen?
I think this can be explained by cyclical degeneration, meaning that the doctrine itself is infallible (coming from non-human source, or ultimately from God), but the orders are prone to degeneration in the same way that the whole manvataric cycle proceeds from perfection or the Golden Age to the manifestation of the lower possibilities or the Kali Yuga, ultimately making way to a new Golden Age. Even if the traditionalist school / Guénon harshly criticizes modern evolutionary theories and especially the modern theory of progress (and their entrance into new age pseudo-esotericism), it is not an absolute denial.
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age

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Boreas: I agree with you on that false egalitarianism. I also see one's ability to transcend humanity as a potential - not all are willing (and/or able) to actualize it.

I realize that my approach to this initiation matter can seem a bit straighforward and too simple (and maybe it is so). There has been a lot of talk about humbleness in this thread. To me humility is a key concept in spirituality. Yet, in the same time, I think that one can easily fall into false humbleness also. (False humbleness can be insincere humility or otherwise falsely motivated humility.) Also, this courage-of-a-fool of mine has to do with the fact that I'd like to de-mystify certain spiritual topics.

I can afford to be full of courage as a fool, as my guardians are always more than willing to snap me out of false pride: I've been humiliated and ex-communicated by them countless times. I'm starting to know my place.
Boreas wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:34 pm Even if one rejects the traditionalist thesis (narrative?), I think if you'll study Guénon's treatises about the subject (Initiation & Spiritual Realization and Perspectives on Initiation), there is nothing romantic or paternalistic in them. And I'll assure you, you will learn a lot of very useful things.
Thank you for the advice.
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age

Post by obnoxion »

Nefastos wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:10 pm Boreas kirjoitti: ↑Is there such a thing as spontaneous initiation?

No, but there most likely are initiations that seem to come to pass spontaneously, after a tremendous load of succesful & systematic work. Thus the initiation is "spontaneous" only on this level, but very consistent and build-up on the others. There are spontaneous empowerments and sparks of understanding, but unless they hit the soil that is made ready beforehand, they will not bring lasting change.
This is the sense I also understand the phenomon of the spontaneous initiation. Going back to the example of Mark S.G. Dyczkowski with the Kubjika goddess that I shared earlier, anyone who has had the fortune to delve into the 12 thick volumes of his translation and commentary of Manthanabhairavatantram's Kumarikakhandah -portion, will likely be convinced that the soil was made ready. So in this case there is much concrete evidence of work done on "this level" also.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age

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Boreas wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:53 pm What kind of possibilities do you see for initiation in the post-modern age? Are we all doomed to dabble in the darkness of the post-modern world without any hope?
Yes we are doomed. The possibilities are the same. In this dabbling where tradition is lost, god is dead, and all is blurry and confused, is also a new beginning and we have a great tool to guide us in the treefold key. Even if I could grant myself the true authentic grade of some adeptus major tremendus maximus, strangely I'd still be just the initiated and not the initiator. This relationship of creator and creation hints at a certain obvious direction that doesn't disappear in modern confusion. Our atma-buddhi-manas stands for the initiator, master, higher self &c. and also gives the standards we are willing to accept for a true initiation. True strife is achievement: it actualizes in our trying and we initiate ourselves if we don't and don't if we do.
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