Good answer, Conan!Insanus wrote: ↑Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:09 pmYes we are doomed. The possibilities are the same. In this dabbling where tradition is lost, god is dead, and all is blurry and confused, is also a new beginning and we have a great tool to guide us in the treefold key. Even if I could grant myself the true authentic grade of some adeptus major tremendus maximus, strangely I'd still be just the initiated and not the initiator. This relationship of creator and creation hints at a certain obvious direction that doesn't disappear in modern confusion. Our atma-buddhi-manas stands for the initiator, master, higher self &c. and also gives the standards we are willing to accept for a true initiation. True strife is achievement: it actualizes in our trying and we initiate ourselves if we don't and don't if we do.
Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age
Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age
If I've understood correctly, Guenon's solution was to cling to the least corrupted forms one could find and find refuge in that? As I see it, this is the main difference between traditionalism and theosophy; the former insists on an exoteric form or an outer structure, while the latter disregards them and tries to find the refuge in ethics? Personally I've always been partial to theosophic occultism instead of traditionalist esoterism, but my reasoning is intuitive and hard to put into words. I guess the main problem is the question of why God would need to use exoteric forms or initiate orders to grant salvation to human beings instead of their innermost spirits? And if exoteric forms or initiate orders were really needed for salvation, why would they be allowed them to degenerate?Boreas wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:45 pmI think this can be explained by cyclical degeneration, meaning that the doctrine itself is infallible (coming from non-human source, or ultimately from God), but the orders are prone to degeneration in the same way that the whole manvataric cycle proceeds from perfection or the Golden Age to the manifestation of the lower possibilities or the Kali Yuga, ultimately making way to a new Golden Age. Even if the traditionalist school / Guénon harshly criticizes modern evolutionary theories and especially the modern theory of progress (and their entrance into new age pseudo-esotericism), it is not an absolute denial.
Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age
Initiation is seen in traditional thought as the way of liberation and salvation as the common path in which every one is called. Salvation takes man no further than to his individual limits while initiation is the entrance into the supraindividual States.
The formal side is seen not to be neglected, since it is the support of the realization. Even theosophy addresses the formal side even if not in so strict manner, since manifestation, theophany and revelation are seen as inter-connected.
I think Guenon's answer to the degeneration of the initiatic orders was that they start to degenerate in time in conformity with cyclical laws when they start preoccupying themselves with secondary or even profane issues - politics for example - instead of the initiatic doctrine itself. But while the doctrine preserves, a restoration is always possible.
The formal side is seen not to be neglected, since it is the support of the realization. Even theosophy addresses the formal side even if not in so strict manner, since manifestation, theophany and revelation are seen as inter-connected.
I think Guenon's answer to the degeneration of the initiatic orders was that they start to degenerate in time in conformity with cyclical laws when they start preoccupying themselves with secondary or even profane issues - politics for example - instead of the initiatic doctrine itself. But while the doctrine preserves, a restoration is always possible.
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age
Although it is rarely the case, I would still like to think that the initiations are, in a way, possible even in this modern world, especially if we do not consider them as one ultimate mind-blowing experience offered by a guru to few chosen ones. And if we do not restrict the initiation to meaning of what it once was - a way of liberation and salvation.
If we approach the idea of initiation, like in some traditions ie. having something resembling grades or steps, I consider them a possibility and coming from different sources.
Obnoxion quoted Dyzcowski saying: “...we find confirmed the view of the Tantras which declare 'this knowledge (of reality) has three sources, namely, the teacher, the scripture (sastra), and oneself”. I am also think outside sources might offer initiatory experiences to some different areas of consciousness. Very simple examples of what I mean is if you for example have learned how to use dowsing rod and someone is not able to have it reacting, it is possible to concentrate on the part of consciousness that is in operation during the act and then touch and extend your consciousness to make others learn the same. After that they’ll possess the “gift” for weeks, months, maybe even years. But it seems to wane off slowly if they do not keep using it. I am not trying to say, this is an initiation, but I think this illustrates what I consider to be the idea of initiation. I believe it is possible to lend a “hand” to experience other states of consciousness as well. But this requires that the one initiating others, would really need to have achieved the access to that level of consciousness and to maintain it by will. Now if you take modern initiatory sects/cults of this day, they usually have nothing to offer but dead ceremonies and grades as power structure. This is why I consider the initiation ceremonies of the modern initiatory systems false and empty of any real essence and find it hard time of believing that “while the doctrine preserves, a restoration is always possible.”
But still, I am huge believer of “smaller initiations”. I consider deep communication as a form of interaction between consciousness of the participants. And sometimes, if you explain some experiences that you have really deeply felt, it may sometimes transfer to become an “experience” in others too. It just requires that some one has been able to experience the state and in a way stabilize it enough to be able to enter and communicate it. When one is able to “remember” the experience deeply enough that it changes their consciousness back into that state, it sometimes affects the other and transfers to others just like emotions do in a group. I think these sharing of experiences can “open the worlds” and in that way may be regarded as initiating force for different states.
Of three sources of Obnoxion mentioned, I also think the most important is oneself. Even though one can have very profound changes within oneself while reading a scripture, it is more connected to the reader than the text. And in communication or passing on the state of consciousness, one has to already be on the threshold to be able to pick the consciousness from the communication, the change cannot be too big or it will not become internal.
If we approach the idea of initiation, like in some traditions ie. having something resembling grades or steps, I consider them a possibility and coming from different sources.
Obnoxion quoted Dyzcowski saying: “...we find confirmed the view of the Tantras which declare 'this knowledge (of reality) has three sources, namely, the teacher, the scripture (sastra), and oneself”. I am also think outside sources might offer initiatory experiences to some different areas of consciousness. Very simple examples of what I mean is if you for example have learned how to use dowsing rod and someone is not able to have it reacting, it is possible to concentrate on the part of consciousness that is in operation during the act and then touch and extend your consciousness to make others learn the same. After that they’ll possess the “gift” for weeks, months, maybe even years. But it seems to wane off slowly if they do not keep using it. I am not trying to say, this is an initiation, but I think this illustrates what I consider to be the idea of initiation. I believe it is possible to lend a “hand” to experience other states of consciousness as well. But this requires that the one initiating others, would really need to have achieved the access to that level of consciousness and to maintain it by will. Now if you take modern initiatory sects/cults of this day, they usually have nothing to offer but dead ceremonies and grades as power structure. This is why I consider the initiation ceremonies of the modern initiatory systems false and empty of any real essence and find it hard time of believing that “while the doctrine preserves, a restoration is always possible.”
But still, I am huge believer of “smaller initiations”. I consider deep communication as a form of interaction between consciousness of the participants. And sometimes, if you explain some experiences that you have really deeply felt, it may sometimes transfer to become an “experience” in others too. It just requires that some one has been able to experience the state and in a way stabilize it enough to be able to enter and communicate it. When one is able to “remember” the experience deeply enough that it changes their consciousness back into that state, it sometimes affects the other and transfers to others just like emotions do in a group. I think these sharing of experiences can “open the worlds” and in that way may be regarded as initiating force for different states.
Of three sources of Obnoxion mentioned, I also think the most important is oneself. Even though one can have very profound changes within oneself while reading a scripture, it is more connected to the reader than the text. And in communication or passing on the state of consciousness, one has to already be on the threshold to be able to pick the consciousness from the communication, the change cannot be too big or it will not become internal.
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age
It seems we agree on these matters. Just as as the egoic self forms a dynamic analogy to the pantheistic subjective absolute in Nondual Shaivism, I think litttle realizations like, for example, learning to read, can form a dynamic analogy to greater initiations. Such developmental, seemingly everydayish affairs are, aftet all, more lasting than the outer forms of sacred traditions, that might just as well form barriers as they form vital vehicles to initiations.Zeraim wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:34 am Although it is rarely the case, I would still like to think that the initiations are, in a way, possible even in this modern world, especially if we do not consider them as one ultimate mind-blowing experience offered by a guru to few chosen ones. And if we do not restrict the initiation to meaning of what it once was - a way of liberation and salvation.
If we approach the idea of initiation, like in some traditions ie. having something resembling grades or steps, I consider them a possibility and coming from different sources.
Obnoxion quoted Dyzcowski saying: “...we find confirmed the view of the Tantras which declare 'this knowledge (of reality) has three sources, namely, the teacher, the scripture (sastra), and oneself”. I am also think outside sources might offer initiatory experiences to some different areas of consciousness. Very simple examples of what I mean is if you for example have learned how to use dowsing rod and someone is not able to have it reacting, it is possible to concentrate on the part of consciousness that is in operation during the act and then touch and extend your consciousness to make others learn the same. After that they’ll possess the “gift” for weeks, months, maybe even years. But it seems to wane off slowly if they do not keep using it. I am not trying to say, this is an initiation, but I think this illustrates what I consider to be the idea of initiation. I believe it is possible to lend a “hand” to experience other states of consciousness as well. But this requires that the one initiating others, would really need to have achieved the access to that level of consciousness and to maintain it by will. Now if you take modern initiatory sects/cults of this day, they usually have nothing to offer but dead ceremonies and grades as power structure. This is why I consider the initiation ceremonies of the modern initiatory systems false and empty of any real essence and find it hard time of believing that “while the doctrine preserves, a restoration is always possible.”
But still, I am huge believer of “smaller initiations”. I consider deep communication as a form of interaction between consciousness of the participants. And sometimes, if you explain some experiences that you have really deeply felt, it may sometimes transfer to become an “experience” in others too. It just requires that some one has been able to experience the state and in a way stabilize it enough to be able to enter and communicate it. When one is able to “remember” the experience deeply enough that it changes their consciousness back into that state, it sometimes affects the other and transfers to others just like emotions do in a group. I think these sharing of experiences can “open the worlds” and in that way may be regarded as initiating force for different states.
Of three sources of Obnoxion mentioned, I also think the most important is oneself. Even though one can have very profound changes within oneself while reading a scripture, it is more connected to the reader than the text. And in communication or passing on the state of consciousness, one has to already be on the threshold to be able to pick the consciousness from the communication, the change cannot be too big or it will not become internal.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age
We don't know each others on a personal level, but actually I was worried about you few years ago. I have been following your music, art making and writings a very long time. You among Ervast and Nefastos sort of gave me somekind of language structure to those inner feelings which totally prevented me to be part of society before I was able to get some comprehension what is going on inside me.Boreas wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:27 amAs I believe in re-incarnation, nothing ever done with eternity in mind is in vain and initiation is the accomplishment of lifetimes of effort, it would mean that the current work is preparatory in nature. And because I know for certain that because of my illness the doors of initiation remain closed for me in this incarnation (psychic instabilities being a real obstacle for qualification for certain), my current spiritual work is also preparatory both in doctrinal and practical sense. There is spiritual progress even without initiation and it is my self-imposed duty to grow as a human being.
Anyway if I understand anything about Satanism and/or Luciferianism (pride) your attitude definitely demands power.
Re: Tracing out the Initiatic Path in the post-modern age
Your worries haven't been for nothing since I did try to take my life.
To be mentioned among Ervast is certainly a honor!
Well, it takes force to get out of bed in the morning but otherwise I try to rely mostly to other things than forcing myself. A Day and hour at a time.