Angelology and the Heathen Gods

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
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Angolmois

Angelology and the Heathen Gods

Post by Angolmois »

I've recently been interested again in angelology and have searched different studies related to it. Some years ago I read from Gornahoor that angels can be compared to the plethora of Heathen gods and the idea has stuck with me since. In this way of thinking the pagan gods are also like messengers and hypostasis of the One supreme principle.

What do you think of the matter? Is there an underlying (septenary?) correspondence to the planetary principles in this schema where the Gods of Paganism refer to metaphysical and cosmological principles in the same way that the angels refer to higher States of Being?

If anyone knows good books, lectures etc. about angelology please Let me know. Fallen angels included. I'm pretty sure there isn't some good book where the comparison between the Gods and angels would be studied esoterically, but that would be super.
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Nefastos
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Re: Angelology and the Heathen Gods

Post by Nefastos »

Yes, I take monotheism & polytheism being just a bit different approaches to the same subject. And since both of these are naturally symbolical, differences between their symbolistic presentations should not be underlined too much. Once again I must say that reading Hindu scriptures helps a lot: every Indian religion claims that its God/dess is the highest, but still the overall doctrine sees not any problem in this. Yes, every one of them is the highest, one approach to the highest, a splendid aspect. Just like Christ and Satan are both similarly "highest" aspects or manifestations of One One in the system that we practice.

Pantheons of divine beings are "angelic" choirs. The word "angel" itself is a bit problematic since it emphasises the monotheistic doctrine: each such spirit, however lofty and divine by itself, simply becomes the "messenger" (angelos) of the divine. This, however, is once again the same doctrine that permeates the system of Hindu schools also: Shakti (Devî; the Goddess Magna Mater) is seen in every being and in every bodily center of every creature, just like Shiva is THE divine spark & dynamic consciousness in everything. Thus every being that actually lives and moves and has its being somewhere, has it in God the Absolute. "There is only one God"...

Speaking of the treatises on angelology, I would personally like to delve deeper in the Celestial Hierarchies of Pseudo-Dionysius. It's the classic behind many a classic. I actually presented it for a reading group here in the forum's Finnish side, but another book got chosen instead.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
obnoxion
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Re: Angelology and the Heathen Gods

Post by obnoxion »

In most Afro-Carribian traditions, like Vodou, the Christian saints have correspondences to the loas they serve. That is a very interesting system, and it sort of underlies Catholicism as the most magical form of Christianity. This magical aspect was important reason why so many Decadent poets were fascinated by Catholicism. (The usual path of a Decadent poets was, I recently read: first a decadent atheist, then practicing pagan and finally Catholic convert).

R. Murray Thomas has written a most interesting book on the topic, "The Roots of Haiti's Vodou-Christian Faith" (Praeger, 2014). (And on the off-topic of Decadence, Ellis Hanson's "Decadence and Catholicism" (Harvard University Press, 1998) is quite interesting).
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
Angolmois

Re: Angelology and the Heathen Gods

Post by Angolmois »

Nefastos wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:19 am Yes, I take monotheism & polytheism being just a bit different approaches to the same subject. And since both of these are naturally symbolical, differences between their symbolistic presentations should not be underlined too much.
In the article I wrote to Hylätty Kivi about monotheism and polytheism there was a quote from Jean Hani in which he stated that monotheism takes its stand from the point of view outside manifestation (only one God) and polytheism that of manifestation (Gods). I guess we can infer from this the wrong directions to which both of these can lead the unwary practitioner, that of one-sided dualistic otherworldliness ("creation was futile") or a kind of profanation and worldliness in which Paganism is seen as a "nature religion" without any sense of transcendence.
Nefastos wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:19 am Once again I must say that reading Hindu scriptures helps a lot: every Indian religion claims that its God/dess is the highest, but still the overall doctrine sees not any problem in this. Yes, every one of them is the highest, one approach to the highest, a splendid aspect. Just like Christ and Satan are both similarly "highest" aspects or manifestations of One One in the system that we practice.
I guess this is where the so called henotheism kicks in?
Nefastos wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:19 am Yespeaking of the treatises on angelology, I would personally like to delve deeper in the Celestial Hierarchies of Pseudo-Dionysius. It's the classic behind many a classic. I actually presented it for a reading group here in the forum's Finnish side, but another book got chosen instead.
This has been in my ordering list for a while also. Yesterday I found Steiner's Helsinki lectures about angelology.
obnoxion wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:33 am In most Afro-Carribian traditions, like Vodou, the Christian saints have correspondences to the entities worshipped. That is a very interesting system, and it sort of underlies Catholicism as the most magical form of Christianity. This magical aspect was important reason why so many Decadent poets were fascinated by Catholicism. (The usual path of a Decadent poets was, I recently read: first a decadent atheist, then practicing pagan and finally Catholic convert).
Although I've never been an atheist, the usual path of the decadent poets seems very close to myself in my search of a vital and living tradition (I frown upon neopagan reconstrutionists.) I could never become a Christian but for some time now I've been fascinated with Catholicism, and a term esoteric catholic pagan is not that far from me.
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Nefastos
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Re: Angelology and the Heathen Gods

Post by Nefastos »

Boreas wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:40 pmI guess this is where the so called henotheism kicks in?

Yes... I suppose henotheism & panentheism are the most correct labels put on my personal preferences. Somehow, though, I feel that these labels are a bit lifeless, and use them seldom. Words like theism and pantheism are more evocative, more demanding so to say, so I use those more. I guess I also prefer slightly archaic terms over the modern. Every form of theology is, after all, unavoidably partial & in need of individual interpretation.

Boreas wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:40 pmIn the article I wrote to Hylätty Kivi about monotheism and polytheism there was a quote from Jean Hani in which he stated that monotheism takes its stand from the point of view outside manifestation (only one God) and polytheism that of manifestation (Gods). I guess we can infer from this the wrong directions to which both of these can lead the unwary practitioner, that of one-sided dualistic otherworldliness ("creation was futile") or a kind of profanation and worldliness in which Paganism is seen as a "nature religion" without any sense of transcendence.

That's why I like to have my monotheism sandwich with polytheism on top, and vice versa. Even though both claim to present an absolute view, they do it in a way that is prone to wrong associations. By they way, we just went through several of your articles in Hylätty Kivi in the last Lucifer lodge meetings, even though the one you referred was not on that list, I think. Instead, Art and Transcendence (HK#2), Reincarnation and Immortality (HK#2), & Individualism, Spiritual and Personal Development (HK#3) were chosen.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Angolmois

Re: Angelology and the Heathen Gods

Post by Angolmois »

Nefastos wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:55 pm By they way, we just went through several of your articles in Hylätty Kivi in the last Lucifer lodge meetings, even though the one you referred was not on that list, I think. Instead, Art and Transcendence (HK#2), Reincarnation and Immortality (HK#2), & Individualism, Spiritual and Personal Development (HK#3) were chosen.
Ha! I may be a little too self-critical but I look upon my earlier writings as horrible drivel.
obnoxion
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Re: Angelology and the Heathen Gods

Post by obnoxion »

Boreas wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:56 pm my earlier writings
Good stuff!
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
Angolmois

Re: Angelology and the Heathen Gods

Post by Angolmois »

obnoxion wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:07 pm
Boreas wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:56 pm my earlier writings
Good stuff!
Thanks Obnoxion! Not that I would refute much I wrote back then but the writings are clearly that of a beginner and there are some lamentable confusions.


Here is the article I referred to in my opening post:

https://www.gornahoor.net/?p=564
Angolmois

Re: Angelology and the Heathen Gods

Post by Angolmois »

I was given a hint of a website and a book that deals with angelology and the seven archangels. Here's the link if anyone's interested: https://sophia.sk/en/kniha/sedem-archanjelov
Angolmois

Re: Angelology and the Heathen Gods

Post by Angolmois »

I thought to share this in my view a balanced and good view on things related to this topic.

On Archetypal deities.
Often people focus on the Gods being an Archetype which is a part of the human psyche or spirit. Sometimes they take this to an almost atheistic extreme with is wrong. That doesn't mean the Archetype isn't a correct interpretation in many ways. People like to speak of Jung but misinterpret what he said. I'm not for the more often than not atheistic leaning Archetypal interpretation of the Gods.
However, in the current modern mindset that can be seen corrupting culture on a daily basis, even this semi atheistic archetypal view isn't acceptable and is often attacked.

Gods are just psychological reactions. However, they are within our psyche.
it is in this Core concept where spirituality has derived that mankind was made in the image of God/s. This is why we look to them for guidance. Why we have behaviors that reflect the divine.

An example in Vajrayana would be the Yidam. A Yidam is your tutelary deity. One that you feel called to and or reach out to due to the attribute/function of divinity they exude. They have the archetype of a spirit that you want to nourish within you.
This is done through worship, adoration, meditation, and sometimes the donning of their "mask" as a persona.

This doesn't mean that the God isn't still a GOD.
Nor does this mean that the practitioner is that God.
but it is the fact that we all had divine within us Bodhi / Brahman / the divine One lives within us as it does the Gods.
so our "archetypes" reflect the Gods
This can be done with all forms of religiosity and in all traditions. It is suggested to be done with one which you are culturally or genetically attached to. It can also be done ancestrally or culturally when emulating the spirit of a hero (saints,cultural myths etc).

The Gods are within you and exist within these Archetypes.
Just as the divine is within them and the Cosmos at large.

Within one's practice, The Gods need to be prominent. Especially the Sky father and Earth/Mother Goddess as both transcendent and at the same time are governing force/beings. There is no hope in one's spirit when everything is boiled down to atheistic science based solely on genetic makeup or psyche. However, both genetic makeup and psyche play into how each and every one of us communicates and perceived the divine.
Just like there are many different cells within the body that have their own functions, with their own Organs to report to. There are many different peoples who have their own cultures and their own spirituality with their aspects of the divine to which they communicate.

Hammer and Vajra
Written by Zachary Gill 11 MAY 2020

P.s. I can heartily recommend the book in the previous post!
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