Sacraments and outer initiations

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Mars
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Sacraments and outer initiations

Post by Mars »

I'm reading Jung and the Lost Gospels - Insights into the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library by Stephan A. Hoeller. In it, as elsewhere, he argues that even though the Christian churches are flawed, the Mass and more importantly the Eucharist can instill spiritual transformation on the participant and "work" as a magical ritual. Now, personally I would rather try to swim across the Atlantic Ocean than partake in any church rituals, but what do you think? Can transformation, initiation, "grace" etc. be handed over outwardly, and is there any value in these sorts of outer ceremonies? Ritual mystery dramas obviously go back in time way longer than the church. Is there any meaning in such practices in these modern days?
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Cerastes
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Re: Sacraments and outer initiations

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I am very skeptical about these things.
In the Church, the idea that there are enlightened individuals as representatives of God on earth, who not only enjoy special rights, but can also pass on enlightenment to others, still holds true today. Once the whole thing is institutionalized, it inevitably leads to problems. I would be at least as skeptical if someone pretended to be a representative of Satan and claimed to give people spiritual transformation or enlightenment.

I don't like that, it not only opens the door for abuse, it also leads believers to externalize their spirituality too much.
Spiritual transformation is not something you get from someone. Of course someone can help you with it but you don't just get it handed to you without doing the inner work yourself.
Some years ago I was much more radical and against any form of guidance. According to the motto: You either do it alone or you leave it alone.
Meanwhile I think that guidance can be very helpful in many cases. But everybody has to enlighten or transform himself. The only apples of knowledge we get to eat are the ones from the trees we plant ourselves, even if deities or person who are close to the spirit can show us the way. A person with a stronger RHP orientation might see this in a different light.
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Cancer
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Re: Sacraments and outer initiations

Post by Cancer »

Cerastes wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:23 pmIn the Church, the idea that there are enlightened individuals as representatives of God on earth, who not only enjoy special rights, but can also pass on enlightenment to others, still holds true today. Once the whole thing is institutionalized, it inevitably leads to problems. I would be at least as skeptical if someone pretended to be a representative of Satan and claimed to give people spiritual transformation or enlightenment.
I think this goes to show how many harmful things are commonly excused just because they're part of the status quo. It seems plausible, at the very least, that many people who aren't inclined to criticize the Church would condemn this sort of authoritarian mindset in another, less influential, spiritual organization. But in the Church's case they are blinded by convention, as violence that maintains a familiar system is always less noticeable then the kind that doesn't.

Instead of replying to the opening question, I'll expand on it: do you think the idea of outward grace is possible without implied authoritarian tendencies? Is antiauthoritarian thinking the rationale behind the Fifth Point of the SoA's Sevenfold Basis?
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Cerastes
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Re: Sacraments and outer initiations

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Cancer wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:57 pm Instead of replying to the opening question, I'll expand on it: do you think the idea of outward grace is possible without implied authoritarian tendencies?
I think the passive, receptive state in which a person receives something from another - be it of spiritual, emotional, intellectual, or physical - is always somehow hierarchical.
So by being receptive one person gives another person the authority to pass something over and to have an impact.
Even reading a book can be a hieratic state of mind.

The important difference is, if the authority is given by free will or taken forcefully by demanding or (psychological) pressure. For example, if you tell people they will burn in hell if they don't listen to what you tell them, it would be a form psychological violence. It’s like the difference between accepting a gift and stealing.

But even if grace is handed over as a gift or sacrifice from one person to another it is never free of authoritarian tendencies. If outwards grace is possible, I still consider it as an authoritarian act – which is not necessarily a bad thing bad.

Therefore, my answer to your question is a no.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
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Re: Sacraments and outer initiations

Post by Angolmois »

Mars wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:57 pm I'm reading Jung and the Lost Gospels - Insights into the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library by Stephan A. Hoeller. In it, as elsewhere, he argues that even though the Christian churches are flawed, the Mass and more importantly the Eucharist can instill spiritual transformation on the participant and "work" as a magical ritual. Now, personally I would rather try to swim across the Atlantic Ocean than partake in any church rituals, but what do you think? Can transformation, initiation, "grace" etc. be handed over outwardly, and is there any value in these sorts of outer ceremonies?
Guénon postulated the theme of "virtual initiation" that is present in Church sacraments, that is, a spiritual influence that is transmitted in any authentic rituals, and that could act as a starting point for actual initiation. In Christianity it would be a case of transmitted grace and a form of "Christic initiation". The work still remains to be done individually by any person going through a virtual initiation, but at least in Guénon's mind they can act as a helpful support for the would-be-initiate.
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Re: Sacraments and outer initiations

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I was reading Jung's thoughts on the subject (the last quote of the post here) the same day that you Mars opened this discussion.
Mars wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:57 pmCan transformation, initiation, "grace" etc. be handed over outwardly, and is there any value in these sorts of outer ceremonies? Ritual mystery dramas obviously go back in time way longer than the church. Is there any meaning in such practices in these modern days?

I think that there are several roles that these ceremonies can take, some of them being beneficent and some not. It is easy to use them as replacement for the real thing, which makes them harmful. Thus the problematic part in this is the sin of pride, either in individual or group mentality ("now I am initiated/enlightened!" or "our religious/occult ceremonies are valid, unlike yours"). In case that can be transcended, ceremony as a tool can become very helpful in both psychological and/or energetical (magical) way.

Cancer wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:57 pmdo you think the idea of outward grace is possible without implied authoritarian tendencies?

I believe so, even though the surface is extremely slippery. (In human life, there are many slippery slopes which we still have to use; I don't think that this is one of those cases where absolute rejection would normally be an optimal approach.) The "grace" as a – very difficult – word itself seems to imply a superhuman source or agency. For me these questions get a little bit different hue because I have no problem believing in superhuman agents, e.g. "angels". (What we mean by these entities is a completely different question, but to believe in non-human beings as agents of energy is the important point here.) Thus I feel that in a similar way that I am a being who is very much dependent on outside help in, say, gaining sustenance, or having air to breath, and being thus like a nursed baby in my union with the great Otherness of the universe, this similarity continues all the way long to the spiritual realms. My being demands constant flux of different kind of energies from the occult beings outside myself, and these current may become either blocked or intensified. Working such currents is a great part of the life of an occultist, that is, to make oneself capable of receiving "grace". Thus, once again, this becomes as two-directional function, not unlike romantic love. As a Venereal type, I see every opposite pairs as the poles of a battery: even hieratical pairs embrace; it need not be a problem that one is seemingly "lower" than the other. Every being has someone above, someone below, and together this endless chain makes up the cosmos. I guess this makes me a bad Satanist in modern Occidental standards: I have no problem worshipping some entities I consider being above my self, since in the end we are all One. The same goes with the idea of the "older brethren": I'd have no problem kissing the ring of some occult adept pope. I am so proud that I do not consider those things to take anything from my positive sense of Self and its pride.

Cancer wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:57 pmIs antiauthoritarian thinking the rationale behind the Fifth Point of the SoA's Sevenfold Basis?

Not to me. Rather, I simply see it as a psychological fact. I can try to help my brother as much as I can (or someone else may try to help me similarly), but it cannot do anything unless the person himself takes full responsibility, full active demand on his own life; takes his self into his hands and starts working, pronto.

It is morbidly funny that even the great Christian church with its billions of supposed believers, follows exactly the route that its Master said not to take. After giving his lectures on ethics of love and extreme personal effort, Jesus tells that there will be those who say to follow him and even make miracles in his name without following these teachings, but he will renounce them to perdition. (In the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 7:20-23)

Boreas wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:28 amThe work still remains to be done individually by any person going through a virtual initiation, but at least in Guénon's mind they can act as a helpful support for the would-be-initiate.


Speaking of virtual initiations, Pekka Ervast spoke similarly about astral initiations. I tend to agree with him: There are major dream state experiences, where one goes through uplifting ceremonies in another world, and they naturally feel to be of great importance. In themselves such astral experiences are still of lesser meaning, though; only when one's initiation is taken throughout one's whole being, including both waking, dreaming, intellectual and spiritual worlds – all together culminating in practical ethics and only through that in actual empowerment – is the great step on the path of ascension taken. By "initiation" one can naturally mean many things, and the etymology itself easily implies only a beginning, but for myself, this word can have this meaning of the ultimate, immortal attainment.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Mars
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Re: Sacraments and outer initiations

Post by Mars »

Thanks for the replies everyone! This is a bit difficult topic since grace, initiation, spiritual transformation etc. can mean such different things, but the main gist was the idea of the possibility of direct transmitting of spiritual teaching from person to person, either directly or via sacrament or ritual.

Hoeller is a gnostic (and a theosophist, I think), not a traditionalist or a perennialist from whom such an opinion concerning sacraments might be expected. In Hoeller's view, it's not the dogma of the church or the priest but the power of the sacrament itself that carries the power if performed authentically, like Guenon describes in Boreas's example. Jung was of a similar view, and he was especially impressed by the Catholic Mass as opposed to the Protestant ones. Jung wrote about this in pre-Vatican II days, so I don't know what he might've thought about modern Catholicism.

Another example outside of Christianity is the Indian saint Ramana Maharshi, whose mere presence was often told to be enough to lead people to a profound experience of the Self (like Paul Brunton describes in his book A Search in Secret India).

As for synchronicities, on the day I read Stephan A. Hoeller article The Gnosis of the Eucharist (from 1989) I went to YouTube to watch the latest of his homilies, in which he talked about the same thing. I've only watched one before, years ago.
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Polyhymnia
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Re: Sacraments and outer initiations

Post by Polyhymnia »

Mars wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:57 pm I'm reading Jung and the Lost Gospels - Insights into the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library by Stephan A. Hoeller. In it, as elsewhere, he argues that even though the Christian churches are flawed, the Mass and more importantly the Eucharist can instill spiritual transformation on the participant and "work" as a magical ritual. Now, personally I would rather try to swim across the Atlantic Ocean than partake in any church rituals, but what do you think? Can transformation, initiation, "grace" etc. be handed over outwardly, and is there any value in these sorts of outer ceremonies? Ritual mystery dramas obviously go back in time way longer than the church. Is there any meaning in such practices in these modern days?
I would also rather swim across the Atlantic Ocean than partake in any church rituals, but I find it interesting that that kind of structure is something I crave within my own practice. My year in the SoA has actually managed to soften my stance on how much I hate the church, and I think that's because using the triple key as my guide has really helped me process many things in much more depth, and with that depth comes the unveiling of all sides of something. I've been forced to challenge my own emotions, examine so much hatred, and I think where the church is concerned a huge value for me was the exposure to these Christic rituals from an early age. I don't know if I would have the spiritual hunger I have now without that exposure.
I suppose the word for all of that would be imprinting.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Cerastes
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Re: Sacraments and outer initiations

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Nefastos wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:21 pm The same goes with the idea of the "older brethren": I'd have no problem kissing the ring of some occult adept pope. I am so proud that I do not consider those things to take anything from my positive sense of Self and its pride.
This is in fact something to be proud of as it takes quite a lot.
I think it would be very difficult for me, probably because I was forced to kiss rings I didn‘t want to kiss for too long.
Polyhymnia wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:51 pm My year in the SoA has actually managed to soften my stance on how much I hate the church, and I think that's because using the triple key as my guide has really helped me process many things in much more depth, and with that depth comes the unveiling of all sides of something. I've been forced to challenge my own emotions, examine so much hatred, and I think where the church is concerned a huge value for me was the exposure to these Christic rituals from an early age. I don't know if I would have the spiritual hunger I have now without that exposure.
I suppose the word for all of that would be imprinting.
Well, my experience ended up in a complete disaster with a very angry priest and a very stubborn me.
I never really took anything from the church rituals since I had an „anti“-mindset from the very beginning. The only valuable thing is a good knowledge of the bible and that I learned to sing Schubert‘s Ave Maria. I still love this song for whatever reason.
As you said, the SoA membership changed some things and it showed me that I don‘t really have a problem with Jesus or Christ. But popes, priests and church bells annoy me very much.
Did you find any spiritual value in the church rituals by the time you where a Christian?
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Cancer
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Re: Sacraments and outer initiations

Post by Cancer »

Cerastes wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:35 pm
Nefastos wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:21 pm The same goes with the idea of the "older brethren": I'd have no problem kissing the ring of some occult adept pope. I am so proud that I do not consider those things to take anything from my positive sense of Self and its pride.
This is in fact something to be proud of as it takes quite a lot.
I think it would be very difficult for me, probably because I was forced to kiss rings I didn‘t want to kiss for too long.
Quick note on authority, respect of it, and pride.

I do not think that pride necessarily has anything to do with the willingness or refusal to revere this or that authority. For e.g. a Satanist, the will to be ones own master in spiritual matters can certainly boil down to a prideful psychological inclination, be it positive or negative. But the opposing of formal or informal hierarchies in an organization is different. I can't say of course that this kind of stance is never taken simply out of pride, but I'd guess that more often antiauthoritarian people, be it consciously or unconsciously, recognize that power is dangerous and that we should be very careful who we give it to. When we flawed creatures are involved, unaccountable power is very likely to be abused.

In a worldview where there are countless beings that are de facto higher - more deserving of authority - than people, this problem isn't so serious, of course. If one knows that the older brethren are trustworthy and capable of directing ones spiritual growth, then there's every reason to embrace their guidance. It's just that this sort of thing is very difficult to know in the human world. (In the sense of knowing someone to be spiritually, comprehensively, "higher". Of course we can know someone to be more capable in a restricted way, at a specific thing, and love and respect them as a teacher in that context.)

Also, being dependent on someone else's care or knowledge (as we all very much are) is different from being under their authority - although there's overlap. Not that I believe anyone here to hold the contrary, I just think it's an important distinction to make explicit.
Cerastes wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:35 pmDid you find any spiritual value in the church rituals by the time you where a Christian?
The question wasn't directed at me, but I'll go ahead and answer anyway. The horrible Lutheran Church of Finland has managed to instill at least one spirituality-related habit in me. I often "cross my hands" when I speak in a way that could be described as prayer (I don't really know what the posture should be called in English, but I hope you get the idea.) The gesture has some kind of connection to my childhood, which I guess makes it spiritually valuable, given that my Christian indoctrination wasn't of the worst sort. The ability to voluntarily participate in a tradition that has "always been there" has advantages, although I don't quite know how to articulate them here.
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