Reasons for choosing a world view

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
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Nefastos
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Reasons for choosing a world view

Postby Nefastos » Thu May 23, 2019 9:57 am

Polyhymnia wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:32 pm
There seems to be a belief over here too in many circles that atheism=the smartest of the smart because they don't need to succumb to any kind of fairytales of made up whatever to feel whole.


This recent observation of sor Polyhymnia reminded me of a thing I have oftentimes despaired over. I mean not the rise of atheism or scepticism, but something else that is seen behind this valid observation: that surprisingly often people tend to choose their world view according to what benefit, or sense of security, or empowerment, or whatever it seems to give.


Matrix wrote:MORPHEUS: Do you believe in fate, Neo?
NEO: No.
MORPHEUS: Why not?
NEO: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.


I think we all know many such dialogues from fiction as well as from real life with real persons.

The problem? It is not about believing or not believing in destiny, God or occultism or whatever, but how a person argues his view; how he has chosen what to believe in. Too rarely we hear an actual rational argument or explanation why the world should most likely be how the one's world view pictures it, but much more often we instead hear the explanation why it would be nice if the world would be like a person has chosen to believe.

Mixing up these two fills me with horror, and it seems that this kind of thinking (un-thinking) has become more common lately with all kinds of world views to choose from instantly. We should notice that this is the very antithesis of truth-seeking, or philosophy (including the nowadays more popular Gnostic or Luciferian search...) in the words' real meaning: to choose that which seems as the nicest option intuitively, instead of that which seems the most probable after careful thinking from all the different angles.

For a long time I was so naïve that I thought that if clear and all-encompassive arguments could be made for a world view, many if not all reasonable people would accept such a view as truth, or at least as partial truth. Only later I discovered that this is not the case at all. When faced with the argument that seems to point to reality that is unwanted, most people just shrug and drop the discussion.

I also used to wonder why people (both in personal discussion and in interviews) so often ask "Why to choose a Satanic world view?" For some time I thought that they simply didn't understand the theology or philosophy behind the reasoning of a Satanic world view. But then the horrible truth loomed: People did not, in fact, care about the theological or philosophical reasoning, because most people do not choose their world view based on that which seems to be most valid, but on that which seems as most intuitively pleasurable or psychologically profitable to choose. Neo does not believe in fate crap because believing in fate crap would take away his treasured feeling of being in control of his own life. No arguments are able to penetrate such a wall of self-chosen delusion.

Would we need some more spirit of "divine Plato" (search after truth because of its own sake) in our world view building?
Or do you see the question in a different manner?
Is the world so shattered that hope for truth has followed God to death, and we now live the age of "whatever works"?
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Reasons for choosing a world view

Postby Kenazis » Thu May 23, 2019 10:50 am

As I see myself being heavily a practical one (not chosen to be this way) I see strong correspondence between what is working and what is truth. This is not so easy way than it first seems to be because ”what’s working” should be viewed from the perspective of the ”whole system”.

There are many things that I would like to be true, but to be honest, it seems they are not. And there are many things that I would like not to be true, but they seem to be. And the deeper you go intellectually the more fuzzier the ”common truths” might become and the odd things might seem clearer. I would sure be happier if I could just be living more in my subjective sphere, but that would be dishonest.

Present Dalai Lama once said (if I remember the source correctly) that the meditation makes you feel the sufferings of the world more clearly and thus increasing your suffering, but in the same time it gives you better methods to cope with those sufferings. I think this is a valid observation, but sometimes (maybe too one-sided contemplation/meditation/practise) people increase the other side more and end either suffering too much or not seeing the suffering enough and living in their bubble of unicorns.

And the things you said Nefastos, I usually blame post-modernism about them and paint paradise pictures of some times before it or way after it. Even while some would see me as some completely post-modernic douchebag. I think if the humankind and World endures this global pan-raping, truth will slowly rise.
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Re: Reasons for choosing a world view

Postby Cerastes » Thu May 23, 2019 2:23 pm

I’ve been thinking about this but I never tried to explain it to anyone else, so I’ll try to put it into comprehensible words.

A lot of – if not all- of these phenomens boil down our the very basic needs. This one is based on the need for safety, because nothing makes you more vulnerable than an open mind. We live in an time with an overflow of very dominating external information- much more than we are able to process.
I, too, suffer from sensory overload in complex surroundings. If it's too loud in a cinema and there's too much action on screen I fall asleep just the way a new born baby would
This statement from Sor Polyharmonia in another topic made me smile because it is really cute, but in fact this is exactly the point. I noticed, that since occultism got a serious thing for me, signals from the outside world tend to produce an overload much faster or at least I notice this overload much faster. Presumably, because I've aligned my sensors more on inner or more subtle signals- to the inner processing of this information. This is a very unsafe way because the result is unclear but it has the highest potential for finding the truth at least with a good portion of reliable, brutally honest self-reflection. We are switching off a protection mechanism of our psyche, so to say.

Society is goining in another direction right now. Many people are seeking psychological pattern for safety that often stand contrary to the truth. A clear, safe and observable definition of the own personality is one of those pattern and the world view or believe system is an immediate result.
“I’m a Liberal, so I think liberal politican x is right about topic x”
(-> Cognitive process finished)
This is an easy and absolutly safe way to get an opinion on something and now you can start collecting information that fits in the picture. There is no need to put the information into a wider frame or consider different information. The result is already there, nothing can go wrong anymore and all the hurtful truth is kept away.

This leads to knowledge that is wide but not very deep. Everybody needs to have an opinion on everything but of course we are unable have a deep knowledge on all the relevant topics. So, again the pattern is activated to unburden the cognition from too many different information that is waiting to be processed.

That said, I do not try to convince anyone of my opinion anymore because it is like trying to force a person who seeks a quiet place into a overwhelmingly complex, lound, hectic surrounding. Clearly there will be aggressive reactions because that’s how people react when you act against their need for safety.

The collective idea, that taking away all dogmas makes people free thinkers is something I consider to be wrong. Choose your dogmas wisly would be a much better motto because it is much less delusive.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
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Re: Reasons for choosing a world view

Postby Insanus » Thu May 23, 2019 10:24 pm

I think "world" is a tricky word that doesn't have a real referent. I mean that any world we think we see is a composition born out of our theorizing. "Out there" is my backyard, the city, country, planet, galaxy, but "world" is saying too much to mean anything to experience. It's more of an intellectual construct, resulting from partly ideological, subjective stuff. I try to avoid world-views and big generalizations but sometimes they just come almost automatically because I'm not that smart. If I can't get rid of one, I'll carry it with me until I can, if I can.
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Re: Reasons for choosing a world view

Postby Polyhymnia » Thu May 23, 2019 10:51 pm

Fun little side note on the synchronicity of this post with my in-the-flesh life: I've had conversations with not just one, but several different people within the past week about how the world seems to be divided into very specific narratives, and how there are some very large narratives with seemingly large goals pertaining to that of a specific collective of people, but even these very specific narratives are not free from the limitations of subjectivity. So you get people participating in the same narrative who find disagreement because a few details of personal belief may differ, then they fight amongst themselves, and I think ultimately it does more harm than good for the narrative they were trying to perpetuate. So I was really quite ecstatic to open up the forums and see this discussion :D
Nefastos wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 9:57 am


The problem? It is not about believing or not believing in destiny, God or occultism or whatever, but how a person argues his view; how he has chosen what to believe in. Too rarely we hear an actual rational argument or explanation why the world should most likely be how the one's world view pictures it, but much more often we instead hear the explanation why it would be nice if the world would be like a person has chosen to believe.
This just made my brain explode. We hear the explanation why it would be nice if the world would be like a person has chosen to believe. This is going to change the way I observe from here on out. I feel as if you've just given me a piece of a puzzle. THE puzzle, I suppose.
Nefastos wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 9:57 am
For a long time I was so naïve that I thought that if clear and all-encompassive arguments could be made for a world view, many if not all reasonable people would accept such a view as truth, or at least as partial truth. Only later I discovered that this is not the case at all. When faced with the argument that seems to point to reality that is unwanted, most people just shrug and drop the discussion.
I think I'm guilty of this, myself. I think mostly I'll drop discussions just due to being mentally exhausted going up against people who vehemently deny any kind of reason or compromise. It makes me self reflect quite a bit on my own habits, and how open minded I may be to certain views. I used to be quite reactionary, and very set in my beliefs. These days I kind of just float in many shades of grey and am quite slow to react on most things. I'd like to think I'm getting wiser, but maybe I'm just getting older and crankier. They say the three go hand in hand.
Nefastos wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 9:57 am
Would we need some more spirit of "divine Plato" (search after truth because of its own sake) in our world view building?
Or do you see the question in a different manner?
Is the world so shattered that hope for truth has followed God to death, and we now live the age of "whatever works"?[/color]
I definitely think a shift in our world view building would be for the better. I truly feel (maybe naively and definitely wishfully) that teaching the search for truth for its own sake from birth could be a very good thing. The problem is many people wholeheartedly believe their way is the only way, and truly believe that x is the only way to the truth, and I don't have any idea how to change the rigidity of those foundational blocks of someone's being. Furthermore, organized religion seems to always have been an often safe harbour for abusers, murderers, and the power hungry. I don't necessarily think that obliterating religion as we know it would change the more negative aspects of human nature, but it would be nice. I wish I could come to a concrete answer, but I think this discussion will have me pondering the nature of man for the next little while, because I think there's another piece of the puzzle in there somewhere.
Cerastes wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:23 pm

A lot of – if not all- of these phenomens boil down our the very basic needs. This one is based on the need for safety, because nothing makes you more vulnerable than an open mind. We live in an time with an overflow of very dominating external information- much more than we are able to process.
Yes! Our very basic needs, and our very basic nature! 100% agree that nothing makes you more vulnerable than an open mind.
Cerastes wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:23 pm

This is an easy and absolutly safe way to get an opinion on something and now you can start collecting information that fits in the picture. There is no need to put the information into a wider frame or consider different information. The result is already there, nothing can go wrong anymore and all the hurtful truth is kept away.
Absolutely. Fitting the world as we know it into our desired narratives. I think this action is done mostly from a place of being self unaware.
Cerastes wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:23 pm
That said, I do not try to convince anyone of my opinion anymore because it is like trying to force a person who seeks a quiet place into a overwhelmingly complex, lound, hectic surrounding. Clearly there will be aggressive reactions because that’s how people react when you act against their need for safety.
Couldn't have said it any better. And I'm glad you found the picture of me falling asleep in the theatre cute! I'm sure the people next to a snoring me would definitely disagree :lol:
Kenazis wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:50 am
Present Dalai Lama once said (if I remember the source correctly) that the meditation makes you feel the sufferings of the world more clearly and thus increasing your suffering, but in the same time it gives you better methods to cope with those sufferings. I think this is a valid observation, but sometimes (maybe too one-sided contemplation/meditation/practise) people increase the other side more and end either suffering too much or not seeing the suffering enough and living in their bubble of unicorns.
Very interesting food for thought. Meditating from an altruistic place vs. meditating for personal gain. I don't think I ever really stopped to look at the difference before and the effects it has.
[/quote]
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Reasons for choosing a world view

Postby Nefastos » Fri May 24, 2019 11:12 am

Polyhymnia wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:51 pm
I think I'm guilty of this, myself. I think mostly I'll drop discussions just due to being mentally exhausted going up against people who vehemently deny any kind of reason or compromise.


Of course, and that is how it should be. In my post, I didn't mean "facts" when I spoke of well-argued world view (which is philosophy and theology, be it the theology of a theistic, deistic or atheistic sort). I think that this is one of the reasons behind the problem we face: The very idea of philosophical but also practical truth which is "wisdom" (not very much used term nowadays, is it?) has been quite hopelessly confused with the idea of (scientific) facts. And in order to escape this problem of the 20th century, the 21st century has chosen to believe in narratives. The problem is, narratives cannot be easily compared: there is no "bad" narrative, like there is bad (unsound) philosophy.


Insanus wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:24 pm
I think "world" is a tricky word that doesn't have a real referent. I mean that any world we think we see is a composition born out of our theorizing.


Even if one sees that navigating is more important than life, it should not prevent us from landing every once in a while. Granted, there are people who by temperament are able to live their whole life on sea, but they are few. I think that the idea of pragmatic or heuristic solidity does not hinder us per se, only its wrong applications.


Cerastes wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:23 pm
That said, I do not try to convince anyone of my opinion anymore because it is like trying to force a person who seeks a quiet place into a overwhelmingly complex, lound, hectic surrounding. Clearly there will be aggressive reactions because that’s how people react when you act against their need for safety.


I too think that the cultural need of safety is a major factor behind this phenomenon, and of course it isn't any answer at all to call out even hotter debates. In my invoking of the Platonic spirit I meant that wisdom should be sought again, not that it should be forced down the people's throats by force (which any wise teacher would never try anyway, knowing it to be a both evil & futile attempt). These things cannot be done for others, but everyone might dare a little bit more. I mean, dare to open & be vulnerable like you said. But that already demands quite a lot of self-assurance, which in turn would demand right that very thing it seeks: certainty of something (in one's world view). Like Vaughan the alchemist said, one needs gold to make gold, this is unavoidable, and a demand for a leap of faith in many situations.


Kenazis wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:50 am
And the things you said Nefastos, I usually blame post-modernism about them and paint paradise pictures of some times before it or way after it. Even while some would see me as some completely post-modernic douchebag.


I just finished reading Pessoa's The Book of Disquiet, written about hundred years ago, at the end of which he cleverly faces this problem of his time. The generation of his parents had killed the religion, but had been unable to really place it with anything else, and with Pessoa's own generation, his parents' mystico-political ideals also started to die out, because the very root of faith had been dealt with. And thus the whole book is about a very intelligent, sharp-visioned lounge astralism, where one instead of living just dreams about living, and lives seeking isolated purely aesthetical pleasure. This is quite the same that we see in Lovecraft (and also something similar to Crowley, &c.). There just isn't anything greater than one's personality, which can then be deified even in its blatant lackings. And those things, because they make possible a very pleasing outer form for intelligent nonsense, are very magnetic to masses and intelligent people both. In this I am more like perennialist myself, feeling that there is the Truth, even though it veils itself differently in different ages, and just throwing one's hands in the air and let the capital letter drop is a serious defeat. To seek this Truth is not to say that one knows it, but one can certainly say that one knows of it. This is the Socratic heart, not the real idea of self-assumed ignorance.


Polyhymnia wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:51 pm
We hear the explanation why it would be nice if the world would be like a person has chosen to believe. This is going to change the way I observe from here on out. I feel as if you've just given me a piece of a puzzle. THE puzzle, I suppose.


"THE puzzle", for me, is the so called demons' cube, of the cube of Metatron onto which the planetary daimonic principles have been attached. This I see as the macrocosmic and microcosmic Lock. In this puzzle box the problem at hand is the line connecting Saturn (analytical reasoning) to Mercury (communication and wisdom). In order to get a straight line, it needs to be equally close to – and thus, equally far from – its left-handed path of guiding Jupiter and right-handed path of tender, empathetic Venus.

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Re: Reasons for choosing a world view

Postby Cerastes » Sat May 25, 2019 9:49 am

Nefastos wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:12 am
There just isn't anything greater than one's personality, which can then be deified even in its blatant lackings. And those things, because they make possible a very pleasing outer form for intelligent nonsense, are very magnetic to masses and intelligent people both. In this I am more like perennialist myself, feeling that there is the Truth, even though it veils itself differently in different ages, and just throwing one's hands in the air and let the capital letter drop is a serious defeat. To seek this Truth is not to say that one knows it, but one can certainly say that one knows of it. This is the Socratic heart, not the real idea of self-assumed ignorance.
So the loss of faith in a greater truth leads to people who are no longer seeking the truth? In other words:
The death of god, or the denial of sacredness outside of men, may have left to a gap of faith in a greater truth which is now filled with a naive-seeming world view, that is no longer referring to the whole and thus doomed to stay highly subjective. In this case I would not even matter if there actually is a greater truth or not. The idea of a greater truth alone rises wisdom to a desirable value for society.

Ideally, the inner process of faith is creating stability or at least a solid frame that is followed by an outer change. By now, a part of society might be trying to invert this process and create an outer stability, while hoping that the inner stability will follow. Since this is a hedonistic time, it is mainly based on what the person wants the world to be, because the truth is so much more hurtful.
The Matrix quote is a very good example for the fact that people want to believe in something, even if they claim that they are only seeking for undoubtable facts. The most aggressively defended world views are those of which the subconscious mind knows that they are fragile and not standing on a solid fundament.
Kenazis wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:50 am
I would sure be happier if I could just be living more in my subjective sphere, but that would be dishonest.
I was thinking about your article about suffering and how it can unveil the unity of all which by the way was very helpful for me. At this point am not sure if the truth will make you unhappier than the subjective sphere. Many people who only allow satisfying information to enter the door of their subjective sphere are so far removed from reality that many compensatory mechanisms are necessary to maintain the worldview. I do not know if that causes more harm and therefore more suffering to the individium in the long run than the truth.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Re: Reasons for choosing a world view

Postby Nefastos » Wed May 29, 2019 10:59 am

Cerastes wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 9:49 am
So the loss of faith in a greater truth leads to people who are no longer seeking the truth? In other words:
The death of god, or the denial of sacredness outside of men, may have left to a gap of faith in a greater truth which is now filled with a naive-seeming world view, that is no longer referring to the whole and thus doomed to stay highly subjective. In this case I would not even matter if there actually is a greater truth or not. The idea of a greater truth alone rises wisdom to a desirable value for society.

Ideally, the inner process of faith is creating stability or at least a solid frame that is followed by an outer change.


Wisdom, Sophia, who is the female counterpart of creating Logos in esoteric systems, and who gives reason (in the word's two meanings) for creation and makes it harmonical and stable, is in microcosm the principle of buddhi: the "sense to perceive unity". This connectedness of manas to buddhi, or the philosophical mind's turning to eternal mind, is the first thing in the practical esoteric cosmology. It is the red thread going through from the first written sources, from Plato to Neoplatonic and Gnostic, Tantric & Qabbalistic esotericism.

I see buddhi as a sphere, a membrane that encloses the body of organs into one whole. Spiritually, it is the "aura" which holds in itself our unique but still connected individuality; in the world of thought, it is our ideology, which has its center point and its periphery, even though it remains connected to all the other ideas in one way or the other – and so on. In our planetary system it might likened to the "sky" or "heaven" of the stratosphere which both creates the livable atmosphere for the planet and yet is something higher and more free in itself.

I believe that it is this spiritual and vital membrane that makes life – not to mention hermeneutical communication between individuals, or between the parts of an individual – possible. To assume a world of not-buddhi, the postmodern idea of non-connectedness, is to ideate the model of disintegration. (Which might actually be welcome, would disintegration mean annihilation, but it does not.)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Reasons for choosing a world view

Postby Insanus » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:16 pm

Nefastos wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:12 am


Insanus wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:24 pm
I think "world" is a tricky word that doesn't have a real referent. I mean that any world we think we see is a composition born out of our theorizing.


Even if one sees that navigating is more important than life, it should not prevent us from landing every once in a while. Granted, there are people who by temperament are able to live their whole life on sea, but they are few. I think that the idea of pragmatic or heuristic solidity does not hinder us per se, only its wrong applications.
Agreed (i think :D)
World-views are tools for practical ends, houses to shield from cold, or ships to go to places with, and often even works of art. Certainly we can use them, but living inside one gives reason a power it doesn't deserve.
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Re: Reasons for choosing a world view

Postby obnoxion » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:42 am

So much of value has been written here on this topic, that there is little left to add. But there are some personal musings I'd like to share.

The Doctrine of Unity is the foundation stone for my world view. It does give me a tremendous sense of security and a kind of fearlessness, but that is not why I have chosen it as my world view.

I think it is important to have holes and cracks in one's world view. The unseen and the unnutterable must have free space to move snd breath. To lend yet another Gothic thrope, I intend to live in magnificent ruins, in something unfinished; in something that has incorporated its inevitable destruction, and by this act of accepting has become both a habitation and a monument.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.

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