Murder and the Soul

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
obnoxion
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Murder and the Soul

Postby obnoxion » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:07 am

One of my greatest fears would be to end up killing another human being. Two of my worst nightmares have been about being a murderer. This terror re-surfaced as I was watching a documentary about art history in the capital of Lebanon. To commemorate the civil war, there was a war torn building left standing in the city - the Beit Beirut - that the snipers used during the war. In the building there were graffitis, and one of them read "I lost my soul in a second". It was interpreted in documentary in the way that with the first kill the writer of the graffiti felt he stopped being a human. Now this is exactly how I've felt in my two nightmares on being a murderer - that I had lost my soul in a second.

How do you see this: What does it do to one's soul to kill another human being? And how would one console a repenting murderer?
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Nefastos
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Re: Murder and the Soul

Postby Nefastos » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:40 pm

I find it interesting that you posted this now, while I have been thinking more than ever how absolute a horror it would be – for me – to have a child. These two opposite poles, giving and taking life, seem so tremendous in their karmic (very much including psychological &c.) demand.

Yet I don't believe in sudden choices, but accumulation of realization what the path actually is. Thus murder might be something that can wake the Ego up from having gone towards very bad direction for a long time. Thus it could become also as a positive impact, to understand that trying to just follow orders, or become a strong individual, or whatever the apparent reason, has led one to extremely bad spiritual situation. The personality might not understand this, but the inner entity (Ego) most likely will.

Obnoxion wrote:What does it do to one's soul to kill another human being?

I think that it creates so extreme a burden, a tremendous loan taken from the victim, that it practically makes the slayer as the slave of that other soul.

Obnoxion wrote:And how would one console a repenting murderer?

We have all murdered, we have all been murdered, some point or the other on our eternal journey. Most likely you must go through literal hell to pay such a debt, but when gladly agreed to do just that, it may become as a spiritual teacher.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Smaragd
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Re: Murder and the Soul

Postby Smaragd » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:44 pm

I imagine such acts will play out different delusionary paths according to what the murderers ongoing burden is. For example, when I saw such a nightmare I was devastated and in panic childishly tried to hide the body. The reaction to hide the body tells about the souls disconnection (a cut that is made by murdering) to the World Soul and the unability to face that. The whole setup becomes me and them, do they know, I must hide. I guess surrendering and facing the consequences with the society and other people are a way back. I don't believe the soul is necessarily fully lost, but it still holds on reflecting the horrors we've done. In that sense, a panic might be a positive sign in that it still is a reflection althouth tainted one. Then again an empty feeling is a reflection also and can be interpreted as loosing the connection, or the sole loss of meaning; that a murder is. By meaning I refer to a network of communications and relationship that is formed with different entities and under which happens all sound actions.
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Re: Murder and the Soul

Postby Benemal » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:01 pm

Nefastos wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:40 pm
We have all murdered, we have all been murdered, some point or the other on our eternal journey. Most likely you must go through literal hell to pay such a debt, but when gladly agreed to do just that, it may become as a spiritual teacher.
This is what I believe and also, that we're all, seven billion people, descended from cannibals and rapists (or were those "ourselves"). How could it be otherwise? Might seem like a dark way to think, but I'm happy I'm none of those now and perhaps never will be again. At least I try to see the sunny side of this cold hard human prison.

Dreams of murder a some of the hardest dreams. I've also had dreams where I try to hide the deed and then when I wake, the relief is profound. Because it's all real in the dreamworld and my choices were real. This stuff I usually just disregard and I don't want to know, if perhaps it has some connection to a past life.
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Polyhymnia
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Re: Murder and the Soul

Postby Polyhymnia » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:45 pm

Interesting topic. I must say I've never experienced a dream where I've been the murderer, but I've definitely had dreams being both witness and victim to murder. If I had to wager a guess I would say it's rooted in subconscious fear of losing those closest to me in a traumatizing manner. I'm not afraid to die, or at least I don't think I am, but the thought of my life being taken at the will of another is very unsettling to me.

Do you think the circumstances around a murder change the outcome of the weight on the soul? Would a murder that was pre-meditated and executed with glee tax the soul differently than one done in the heat of passion or in self-defence? I can't answer these questions myself without first understanding my own stance on "good vs evil", which I'm still figuring out. I feel that going out of one's way to take someone's life for the pleasure of it is inherently an evil and repulsive act, and if one's spirit is already in this place, the soul is already too far taxed to be taxed further. So what are the consequences when one is already this far gone? Other than punishment by the law when caught? I think the outcome on the soul depends on how remorseful someone feels.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Murder and the Soul

Postby Aquila » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:08 pm

Polyhymnia wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:45 pm
Do you think the circumstances around a murder change the outcome of the weight on the soul? Would a murder that was pre-meditated and executed with glee tax the soul differently than one done in the heat of passion or in self-defence?
Though the murder committed as self-defense would still be a severe deed, I think that if the person is not carrying bad intensions within and is not a "murderer in soul" the results of karma would be significantly different compared to a person who has will to destroy life and cause harm to others. I guess this is close to the situation in war as well if individuals are not killing others because they want to do so but as results of larger collective disturbances that they did not choose personally. I say personally because if we believe in karma and rebirth, most of the situations and challenges in our lives are more or less chosen before we are born into this life we live at the moment when we were not yet the persons we are now.
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Smaragd
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Re: Murder and the Soul

Postby Smaragd » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:51 pm

Polyhymnia wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:45 pm
Do you think the circumstances around a murder change the outcome of the weight on the soul? Would a murder that was pre-meditated and executed with glee tax the soul differently than one done in the heat of passion or in self-defence? I can't answer these questions myself without first understanding my own stance on "good vs evil", which I'm still figuring out. I feel that going out of one's way to take someone's life for the pleasure of it is inherently an evil and repulsive act, and if one's spirit is already in this place, the soul is already too far taxed to be taxed further. So what are the consequences when one is already this far gone? Other than punishment by the law when caught? I think the outcome on the soul depends on how remorseful someone feels.
The war thing is interesting as here in Finland it is a norm and mandatory thing to go to the army. Civil service is an option for those that don't see armed confrontation a reasonable option. Thus many are forced to ponder these things.

Continuing on a similar vein as fra Aquila the consciousness of ones acts makes a difference I think. If one is too far, say in a blur of war where there's "enhancing" drugs involved, possibly some sort of mass hysteria and what not, ones consciousness of what really is happening is likely not fully there. People coming back to it with PTSD etc. might be sort of a delayed drop to reality of things, but that seems to be an acknowledgement of something gone horribly wrong. There's a huge burden in the trauma itself, but when the act is more conscious the steeper the fall and more harmful for the self. In PTSD and other traumas we share with our harmdoers and victims we can see how karma doesn't act in an instant, but spreads over time. Reminds me of the downward path described in Fosforos where such dwellers ultimately freeze in time lacking all but the lowest principles. At that point I can't see individual soul existing. Maybe there still is some connection to the World Soul but it's strictly behind hierarchies above.
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Re: Murder and the Soul

Postby obnoxion » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:23 pm

Smaragd wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:51 pm
Polyhymnia wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:45 pm
Do you think the circumstances around a murder change the outcome of the weight on the soul? Would a murder that was pre-meditated and executed with glee tax the soul differently than one done in the heat of passion or in self-defence? I can't answer these questions myself without first understanding my own stance on "good vs evil", which I'm still figuring out. I feel that going out of one's way to take someone's life for the pleasure of it is inherently an evil and repulsive act, and if one's spirit is already in this place, the soul is already too far taxed to be taxed further. So what are the consequences when one is already this far gone? Other than punishment by the law when caught? I think the outcome on the soul depends on how remorseful someone feels.
The war thing is interesting as here in Finland it is a norm and mandatory thing to go to the army. Civil service is an option for those that don't see armed confrontation a reasonable option. Thus many are forced to ponder these things.

Continuing on a similar vein as fra Aquila the consciousness of ones acts makes a difference I think. If one is too far, say in a blur of war where there's "enhancing" drugs involved, possibly some sort of mass hysteria and what not, ones consciousness of what really is happening is likely not fully there. People coming back to it with PTSD etc. might be sort of a delayed drop to reality of things, but that seems to be an acknowledgement of something gone horribly wrong. There's a huge burden in the trauma itself, but when the act is more conscious the steeper the fall and more harmful for the self. In PTSD and other traumas we share with our harmdoers and victims we can see how karma doesn't act in an instant, but spreads over time. Reminds me of the downward path described in Fosforos where such dwellers ultimately freeze in time lacking all but the lowest principles. At that point I can't see individual soul existing. Maybe there still is some connection to the World Soul but it's strictly behind hierarchies above.
I've read from this week's news that Finlabds former president Mauno Koivisto (1923 - 2017) struggled a lot with his guilt over people he killed during the war. Apparently he had recuring nightmares, and he was especially diatressed about how he couldn't be sure how many people he had killed, and how many children were orphaned on his account. Later he came to think that war time ought to be seen as a sort of temporary collective insanity, during which people are somehow less accountable for their violence. It is said that he tried to compensate his guilt by studying very hard, so that he would make his life count. That way he could deal with his guilt on having killed for his life.

I suppose these woud not be bad coping mechanisms. But I do think that the sense of guilt could be a necessity for a sense of relief. I really think that the story of Milarepa is therepeutic in this sense, being a story of a mass murderer's journey into liberation during one lifetime.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Polyhymnia
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Re: Murder and the Soul

Postby Polyhymnia » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:46 am

obnoxion wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:23 pm
I suppose these woud not be bad coping mechanisms. But I do think that the sense of guilt could be a necessity for a sense of relief. I really think that the story of Milarepa is therepeutic in this sense, being a story of a mass murderer's journey into liberation during one lifetime.
This is the first time I've heard of Milarepa, so I will delve in and read what I can find. Growing up I was involved in Christian mission work in prisons and looking back it's really fascinating how many prisoners would come to the chapel to give their lives to Christ. I didn't think anything of it then since I was a child, but I imagine guilt was a huge driving factor behind their chapel attendance. An attempt at absolution to take the weight of remorse off.
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
obnoxion
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Re: Murder and the Soul

Postby obnoxion » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:33 am

Polyhymnia wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:46 am
obnoxion wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:23 pm
I suppose these woud not be bad coping mechanisms. But I do think that the sense of guilt could be a necessity for a sense of relief. I really think that the story of Milarepa is therepeutic in this sense, being a story of a mass murderer's journey into liberation during one lifetime.
This is the first time I've heard of Milarepa, so I will delve in and read what I can find. Growing up I was involved in Christian mission work in prisons and looking back it's really fascinating how many prisoners would come to the chapel to give their lives to Christ. I didn't think anything of it then since I was a child, but I imagine guilt was a huge driving factor behind their chapel attendance. An attempt at absolution to take the weight of remorse off.
Milare(s)pa's story is one of the greatest stories of World Religions. It is a Tantric Buddhist story from Tibet. Milarepa was cheated out of inheritence, so at the instigation of his relative, he used sorcery to cause a house to fall down on a group of people, killing, I think, over twenty people. But Milarepa had remorse, and he went to a famous guru, Marpa, who was a harsh master. In the end Milarepa became a Buddhist saint, and his poems are some of the most celebrated religious literature in the world. The Kagya lineage of Tibetan Buddhism traces their lineage to Milarepa and three gurus befote him (Marpa, Naropa and Tilopa). In those days these men were not like the monks of today, but had wives and long hair.

Many other religious figures were killers too, like Moses for example. But when it comes hard criminals reformed by converting to Christianity, I too have met a few, and most of them have been nothing but impressive. I've understood some people consider it somehow cheap or pathetic way to turn one's life around (at least I used to), but it really isn't.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.

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