Chaos

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
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Cerastes
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Re: Chaos

Postby Cerastes » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:10 pm

Well, this is an interesting topic.As it has been said before, people tend to misunderstand what chaos really is.
Chaos is just something with an unknown or unnoticeable structure or reason and not something without a structure or reason. It is unpredictable from our point of view and since we all have different predictions, there is no collective chaos for it is individual like everything else. My personal chaos is what makes life interesting and opens doors so I avoid too much structure. Keeping chaos requires a big amount of control in everyday life so seeing chaos as something uncontrolled doesn’t make sense.
obnoxion wrote:
RPSTOVAL wrote:I'm reading Liber Null (Carroll) at the moment. I've always kind of seen Chaos Magick as a joke but the book is interesting. It quite clearly owes many ideas from Spare and little convenient borrowings from Crowley but again, the book and message of Null is interesting
Here the concept of chaos stems primarily - am I right - from the mathematics of dynamics, that we all learnt from the first Jurassic Park movie back in the day.
How about electronics? Electrical circuits often show complex reactions that are stated as “chaotic” aka “unpredictable”. Numerous hardware simulations are not able to show any kind of regularity or logic so there needs to be an unknown influence and this exactly where it gets interesting: Seeking a manifestation for unknown influences. This can be easily transferred into psychology/occultism.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)
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Re: Chaos

Postby obnoxion » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:32 pm

Red Bird wrote:Well, this is an interesting topic.As it has been said before, people tend to misunderstand what chaos really is.
Chaos is just something with an unknown or unnoticeable structure or reason and not something without a structure or reason. It is unpredictable from our point of view and since we all have different predictions, there is no collective chaos for it is individual like everything else. My personal chaos is what makes life interesting and opens doors so I avoid too much structure. Keeping chaos requires a big amount of control in everyday life so seeing chaos as something uncontrolled doesn’t make sense.
obnoxion wrote:
RPSTOVAL wrote:I'm reading Liber Null (Carroll) at the moment. I've always kind of seen Chaos Magick as a joke but the book is interesting. It quite clearly owes many ideas from Spare and little convenient borrowings from Crowley but again, the book and message of Null is interesting
Here the concept of chaos stems primarily - am I right - from the mathematics of dynamics, that we all learnt from the first Jurassic Park movie back in the day.
How about electronics? Electrical circuits often show complex reactions that are stated as “chaotic” aka “unpredictable”. Numerous hardware simulations are not able to show any kind of regularity or logic so there needs to be an unknown influence and this exactly where it gets interesting: Seeking a manifestation for unknown influences. This can be easily transferred into psychology/occultism.
To be sure, all I know about electricity I've learnt by watching David Lynch's work...

But I think I remember fra Nefastos writing that what we mean by electricity is but the corpse of Fohat. I have some times thought about this, and how this might correspond to the well-known image of a flaccid Serpent nailed to the horizontal beam of the cross.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Chaos

Postby Nefastos » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:58 pm

Let me rant a bit about this...
obnoxion wrote:But I think I remember fra Nefastos writing that what we mean by electricity is but the corpse of Fohat. I have some times thought about this, and how this might correspond to the well-known image of a flaccid Serpent nailed to the horizontal beam of the cross.


I was just now reading Dyczkowski's "The Inner Pilgrimage of the Tantras" (from his book "A Journey..." already mentioned elsewhere) and the reminder about how "Kundalinî, the inner form of the goddess as Speech, is likened to a serpent with three and half coils".

While kundalinî is commonly translated as the "serpent fire", I wonder if "serpent electricity" would have been more suitable term, had Sanskrit had a word for it. Of course, fire as an extremely wide term having in itself a plethora of meanings might still be better though, since electricity lacks some of these connotations, while mystic fire also has this symbolic meaning of electricity. (Once again I must suggest Bailey's "Treatise on Cosmic Fire" for further reading... also to myself. I can barely recall her fascinating theses anymore.)

In our Grail lodge meeting I spoke something about this "goddess as Speech", Vâc, and her likeness to the all-nourishing celestial cow (vacca). The world serpent, nailed into time (which is actually matter, or the denseness of the mind seemingly differentiated from the source), becomes divided into two and three parts, into magnetic polarities of the apparent male & female poles. From that point, only the careful reversal process of these polarities makes possible the resurrection of the serpent Christ. Electricity itself is the paradoxal unity-difference of primal polarities.

Like said in the Gospel of John, there is no real difference between the Logos as consciousness and Logos as mystic sound, or "the Word". Both Logoi are one, the Dark and the Luminous God. Mystic sound, first as a pattern (or Wisdom, Sophia) is the first Vâc, unuttered. When she starts to shine forth, she becomes Fohat, because in the world manifested the mystically articulated word already takes a life of its own. In the fifth chapter of the cosmogonical stanzas of Dzyan:

The Book of Dzyan wrote: 1. The Primordial Seven, the First Seven Breaths of the Dragon of Wisdom, produce in their turn from their Holy Circumgyrating Breaths the Fiery Whirlwind.
2. They make of him the messenger of their will. The Dzyu becomes Fohat, the swift son of the Divine sons whose sons are the Lipika, runs circular errands. Fohat is the steed and the thought is the rider. He passes like lightning through the fiery clouds; takes three, and five, and seven strides through the seven regions above, and the seven below. He lifts his voice, and calls the innumerable sparks, and joins them.


I think one important idea of the magical work of Vâc-Fohat would be to change the two-dimensional picture of the Sun (i.e. cosmic union) symbol into three-dimensional model where the middle point is blown outwards to create a world- or soul-bubble like an unicellular organism (like this). This male coherence in female creativity, the hidden womb turning into phallic breast, is Fohat. (The process of giving birth and nourishing the contact between two worlds, or the connection between the world micro- and macrocosmic.) It (S/He) is the mirror reality for that nirvanic union wherein the poles in union would cancel each other out: in the Fohatic union, instead of being cancelled, both keep their own and each other's characteristics. And to the point this can be done by a magician, he is able to channel Fohat by Vâc. But... in order to accomplish that, one must already be free from needs of becoming Something Else, or his or her polarity will be swapped, instead of being merged, in the magical coitus with the Matrix. (This is the reason why bearing children is more common than becoming an enlightened magician: polarities swap in the union, instead of "taking back one step while advancing one", as the Zen lesson puts it.)

This said, we have here all the three possible interpretations for Chaos also (this Chaos being always connected with the Matrix on its different depths or layers). First, the Chaos which is No-Thing, i.e. where the polarities have cancelled out each other; secondly, the Fohatic union where the both are present in magical creation, and ready to start their quicker or slower descent into solidification into material existence; and thirdly, the chaos which is actually confusion of the messed up polarities, apparently pure tumult whose origin escapes us and thus appears as a mysterium tremendum or just psychological crisis, resulting from the process of magnetic reversal of the forces that the mind cannot identify itself with any longer. A lightning-storm is pretty good analogy or symbol for the latter two, and contemplating its formation we might understand something new about the magic of Fohat, or living electricity that both harnesses and is harnessed by the magician.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Chaos

Postby Smaragd » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:42 pm

Red Bird wrote:Keeping chaos requires a big amount of control in everyday life so seeing chaos as something uncontrolled doesn’t make sense.
obnoxion wrote:
RPSTOVAL wrote:I'm reading Liber Null (Carroll) at the moment. I've always kind of seen Chaos Magick as a joke but the book is interesting. It quite clearly owes many ideas from Spare and little convenient borrowings from Crowley but again, the book and message of Null is interesting
Here the concept of chaos stems primarily - am I right - from the mathematics of dynamics, that we all learnt from the first Jurassic Park movie back in the day.
How about electronics? Electrical circuits often show complex reactions that are stated as “chaotic” aka “unpredictable”. Numerous hardware simulations are not able to show any kind of regularity or logic so there needs to be an unknown influence and this exactly where it gets interesting: Seeking a manifestation for unknown influences. This can be easily transferred into psychology/occultism.
obnoxion wrote:But I think I remember fra Nefastos writing that what we mean by electricity is but the corpse of Fohat. I have some times thought about this, and how this might correspond to the well-known image of a flaccid Serpent nailed to the horizontal beam of the cross.
Looking it from the electronic music point of view, the machinery used are designed to have as broad set of controls as possible. Synthesis is about control in a sense that you have everything taken in to their basic elements and you may start placing them together again. But then also in this environment (even in the software world) something unexpected and hardly reproduciple can occur when we as humans combine our ideas spotaneously with the mechanics. It's like the cold hand of black magician at the work of sacred lineage. Such deeds may be sanctified in the moment by, at least in my interpetration, unlocking the door with the Hieroglyphic Key. Unforced the living "chaos" pours in to the corpse of Fohat, is what follows.

Working with sound such occurrences have happened to me also in a form of annoying, summer or two long, construction site next door that one day turned in to beautiful Sirens singing through some tools unknown to me, but I bet they used water in destrying some surfaces. Propably the best field recording I've done. Just observing and letting the tape roll by itself.
Nefastos wrote:It (S/He) is the mirror reality for that nirvanic union wherein the poles in union would cancel each other out: in the Fohatic union, instead of being cancelled, both keep their own and each other's characteristics. And to the point this can be done by a magician, he is able to channel Fohat by Vâc. But... in order to accomplish that, one must already be free from needs of becoming Something Else, or his or her polarity will be swapped, instead of being merged, in the magical coitus with the Matrix. (This is the reason why bearing children is more common than becoming an enlightened magician: polarities swap in the union, instead of "taking back one step while advancing one", as the Zen lesson puts it.)
It seems like the Zen lesson states every creative act powerful enough to manifest in the physical is a failure in itself. But also these failures need to be done to progress on the path, its the treasure hunt for the immanent in these failures.
It isn't obvious for me to concider the polarity swaps that move in the horizontal axis (false movement from the mirror image to the next) to not be part of the same failure, though one may fool oneself to think progress is happening (or to think there is no progress at all) but in reality it's only the polarity swapping that are under concideration there.
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Re: Chaos

Postby obnoxion » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:30 pm

Nefastos wrote: In our Grail lodge meeting I spoke something about this "goddess as Speech", Vâc, and her likeness to the all-nourishing celestial cow (vacca).
This etymological connection is absolutely thrilling! Could you elaborate on the subject, if or when you have the time?

I am reading Stella Kramrisch's "The Presence of Siva", and there are mentioned a pre-temporal moment "in the dawn of the world, when the black cow of cosmic night lies with the ruddy cows of morning" (Rigveda 10.61.4.). How do you see this bovine cosmo-theology in relation to the concept of the Vac?
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Chaos

Postby Nefastos » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:24 pm

Etymology might be a bit too rational word here, let us speak about a capriccio or playful fantasy instead. For an occultist, there is little difference if interpreted rightly, but these mental saunterings of mine would most likely abhor any sane & scientific-minded people.
obnoxion wrote:"in the dawn of the world, when the black cow of cosmic night lies with the ruddy cows of morning" (Rigveda 10.61.4.). How do you see this bovine cosmo-theology in relation to the concept of the Vac?


I would suggest that the four aspects of Vâc are in action, and the Black once again shows its nature as being the "one before the first" as it also is the last one, in the process of emanation. Necessarily so, since the occult tradition keeps the hologram reality model as its very basis, and thus there really is no ending nor a beginning, but every apparent primum mobile is just the very energy of all its parent realities. Thus the black cow of cosmic night would be the Para-Vâc in our system and at the same time the Pashyanti-Vâc of the system of uncreation from which we are reflected; and the ruddy cow would be the Madhyama-Vâc of our creation. Thus the correspondence to the three forms of Chaos suggested above would be that the black cow is the nirvânic one while the ruddy cow is fohatic. (The interesting part of this is that the third chaos, "tremendum", would therefore in this cosmological schema been likened to the white.)

The wish-fulfilling cow (Kâmadhenu) is depicted with a peacock's tail. In his book about the "Sky-Garment", Asko Parpola writes:

Parpola wrote:I would like to suggest that this bird, the peacock covered with many "eyes" or "stars", represents Varuna in his "sky garment" of the star-spangled night. In the Rigveda it is above all Varuna who is watching from the sky with his eyer (sun, moon and the stars). Taittirîya-Âranyaka speaks of the golden-winged bird which flies up to the zenith as the messenger or Varuna, as the bird which is active in Yama's abode of "womb" [...]

In the instrumental fuction of the târpya garment in the astralization process is further illustrated by the three-day rite of Garga. Here it is fairly clear that the târpya garment with its dhisnya decorations stands for the star-speckled heavenly vault and constitutes a means of attaining that heavenly world.

In the three-day rite of Garga, a thousand cows have to be given to the priests as sacrificial gifts. (Till the present day, people in India often give a cow to a brahman when they feel death approaching in order to secure a place in heaven for themselves.) Pancavimsa-Brâhmana explains this as follows: "He who sacrifices with a thousand (cows) (as a sacrificial gift) is not deprived of space in yonder wrold. Now, yonder world (of heaven) is as far distant from this (earthly) world as is the distance from here of a thousand cows put above one another... That he reaches by each successive cow. These (cows), forsooth, are given in order to tread upon (yonder world). As he (i.e. the creator god Prajâpati, i.e. Varuna) created the thousand (cows), the tarpya garment was its place of origin (yoni, "womb") [...]

The texts emphasize the number three in connection with this rite. Thus even the 1000th cow, according to Jaiminîya-Brâhmana and Pancavimsa-Brâhmana, is "three-formed or three-coloured" (tri-rûpa): according to Lâtyâyana-Srautasûtra, this means that it has three colours, white, black and red (suklam krisnam rohitam ity asyâ rûpanî) [...]

The third, "spotted" (sabalî) cow among those three into which the 1000th cow of the three-day rite is analysed, is said to stand for the wish-milking cow of plenty (kâmadughâ) in yonder world of heaven. While the red and black cow apparently correspond to the rising and setting sun, with which the 1st and 3rd day of the three-day rite are equated, the cow with (star-like) spots is left over for the midday sun (which stands at the zenith, in heaven). It represents the 1000th cow, for accoding to Lâtyâyana-Srautasûtra, the 1000th cow is to be given on the middlemost day. [...]

The târpya garment of the royal sacrificer, symbolizing the embryonic cover, corresponds to the garment worn during his period of consecration by the ordinary soma sacrificer; interestingly, this is identified with the cow's skin, and its openings are said to represent stars.


(I have abbreviated Parpola's academical source notes a bit here.) This three-aspected hecatomb of the cows of creation – even depicted as the spatial correspondence between the worlds, thus the light substance of emanation – is the great work itself.

Now Vâc (speech) has four forms, or one formless and three formal aspects. Para-Vâc is spiritual, thus the "Logos that was with God", transcendental. In the schema of the Meru mountain (see Unseen Fire 1, p.83) it would be the pyramid top over the enclosed Moon aspect. This leaves three form aspects of Vâc, Pashyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari, the speech that does not have an audible element, the speech that has half an audible element, and the audible speech of vaikhari vâc. Correspondences might be given like this:

Para-Vâc: Above the Moon seat in the middle: The One-In-All
Pashyanti Vâc: The uppermost peak: Red
Madhyama Vâc: The right peak: White
Vaikhari Vâc: The left peak: Black

Here we see that the colour schema is similar to the first one given in the Book of Paths' first edition but changed to the second, when the power aspects of our White and Red aspects had to be swapped. But in the "cow-model" the first one, the hermaphrodite, is Red instead of White, and the White still corresponds to the "starry midday", being more transcendental. This paradox connects the aspectual sacrifice into the one of remanation, or redemption, where the path of emanation is turned back to God.

While the White and Red here are in the process of swapping (swapping of the color aspect polarities that had to be done is one example of the partly unsuccessful work, or a compromise, that I mentioned in the last message) and thus duplicate each other, the duplicate of the black aspect is in the middlemost or the Moon aspect, just below the Para-Vâc in the middle. Thus it also covers it like a womb, and these two (our Grey, or "spotted", and Black) become much likened.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Chaos

Postby Cerastes » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:34 pm

Smaragd wrote:Looking it from the electronic music point of view, the machinery used are designed to have as broad set of controls as possible. Synthesis is about control in a sense that you have everything taken in to their basic elements and you may start placing them together again. But then also in this environment (even in the software world) something unexpected and hardly reproduciple can occur when we as humans combine our ideas spotaneously with the mechanics. It's like the cold hand of black magician at the work of sacred lineage. Such deeds may be sanctified in the moment by, at least in my interpetration, unlocking the door with the Hieroglyphic Key. Unforced the living "chaos" pours in to the corpse of Fohat, is what follows.

Working with sound such occurrences have happened to me also in a form of annoying, summer or two long, construction site next door that one day turned in to beautiful Sirens singing through some tools unknown to me, but I bet they used water in destrying some surfaces. Propably the best field recording I've done. Just observing and letting the tape roll by itself.
Some kind of dogmatic frame or sieve (I copied this word from obnoxion) - like the Hieroglyphic Key is necessary for going deeper into this path because the true motive of your deeds will always reflect back on you in a very pitilessly way. But in my case the dogma rose out of what I call chaos and found its own way to the surface. I kept every possibility open without any predictions and something very close to the Hieroglyphic Key was the natural result of my beginning occult work. Same goes for many other things that I did not really expect.

So I agree. It kind of sanctifies the path. I’m not sure if it is even possible to work further without it. Maybe one can open the mentioned door with a sledgehammer instead of the hieroglyphic key, but as you said this will most likely end up with the collapse of Fohat and a door that is once destroyed cannot be closed again.

... now I wonder what your construction side music sounds like. I suppose there will not be a YouTube version, right?
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
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Re: Chaos

Postby Smaragd » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:15 am

Nefastos wrote:Here we see that the colour schema is similar to the first one given in the Book of Paths' first edition but changed to the second, when the power aspects of our White and Red aspects had to be swapped. But in the "cow-model" the first one, the hermaphrodite, is Red instead of White, and the White still corresponds to the "starry midday", being more transcendental. This paradox connects the aspectual sacrifice into the one of remanation, or redemption, where the path of emanation is turned back to God.

While the White and Red here are in the process of swapping (swapping of the color aspect polarities that had to be done is one example of the partly unsuccessful work, or a compromise, that I mentioned in the last message) and thus duplicate each other, the duplicate of the black aspect is in the middlemost or the Moon aspect, just below the Para-Vâc in the middle. Thus it also covers it like a womb, and these two (our Grey, or "spotted", and Black) become much likened.
Very interesting and relevant information for me. Will look further into this.

The duplication reminded me of special agent Dale Cooper and his compromises and goals. It is like the lock we are trying to open, turns in the wrong direction and we have to take that extra jiggle in to our muscle memory to continue the work. (**Potential spoilers) I wonder if Coopers muscle memory was completely erased in the end. A simple lock turning into a labyrinth step-by-step.
Red Bird wrote:... now I wonder what your construction side music sounds like. I suppose there will not be a YouTube version, right?
I have about 10 years worth of recordings waiting for my writing skills and understanding to catch on what have been processed mainly unconsciously, so it may take a while to get a specific piece out there. Although our discussion here have brought some light to that recording, rising its chance to find a place from an album some day.
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Re: Chaos

Postby Nefastos » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:51 pm

Smaragd wrote:Very interesting and relevant information for me. Will look further into this.


Thank you, it's good to hear something could have been extracted. It is hard to say whether presenting these half-digested thoughts will do more good or bad. But since I have learned that in the brotherhood circles even a half word from a brother going through the same things from a different angle can often give just the missing hint for someone else's delicate process.

Smaragd wrote:I wonder if Coopers muscle memory was completely erased in the end. A simple lock turning into a labyrinth step-by-step.


This, I think, is the "Fall" both cosmic and human. That is, the whole plunge into emanation. The hexagram lock is turned again and again (Fohat takes "three and five and seven steps") in order to create this extremely fragmented labyrinth world where we no longer even see the myriad particles – both physical and psychical atavisms – that are piled upon each other to create our being.

Smaragd wrote:It isn't obvious for me to concider the polarity swaps that move in the horizontal axis (false movement from the mirror image to the next) to not be part of the same failure, though one may fool oneself to think progress is happening (or to think there is no progress at all) but in reality it's only the polarity swapping that are under concideration there.


Of course, simply adding a dimension to one's mistake can as easily be turning of the lock to either direction: to open or to close. We can move even deeper into our psyche's errors, and this is what the classic black magician (one on the descending path) is doing. Every intensification, empowering initiation he takes takes him deeper towards the ultimate dead end of avici hell where singularity means the collapse of otherness and self into one timeless solitude of extreme alienation from every thinkable energy.

One very easy example: In the Demons' Cube, an extra dimension is presented "under and above Sun", to add the archetypes of Uranus & Neptunus into the model if needed. Actually they are seldom needed, and just adding them into one's practical schema in a haphazard way just adds to the weight of the model without making the puzzle any easier. What is important is to see how the model works – and in this the extra dimension is important to point out, since all the other ones work similarly –, not making it more & more complicated.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Chaos

Postby Cerastes » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:23 pm

Nefastos wrote:Etymology might be a bit too rational word here, let us speak about a capriccio or playful fantasy instead. For an occultist, there is little difference if interpreted rightly, but these mental saunterings of mine would most likely abhor any sane & scientific-minded people.
Most scientist I know are have a, let’s say very subtle level of sanity. At least the good ones are often far away from pure intellectualism. It becomes clear since almost every new scientific approach was called insane at some point. Ironically, the best scientists are not strictly scientific-minded.
I like the idea of snake electricity.

First thing that came to my mind is the magnetic field that would be caused by the 3,5 coils under current. Then I noticed calculating the inductance of a metaphoric snake is not a very sane thing to do. However, the interaction of electricity and magnetism is the main reason why I often prefer this analogy instead of fire. As far as I know, a lightning was called fire from the sky in earlier times.
Nefastos wrote:This said, we have here all the three possible interpretations for Chaos also (this Chaos being always connected with the Matrix on its different depths or layers). First, the Chaos which is No-Thing, i.e. where the polarities have cancelled out each other; secondly, the Fohatic union where the both are present in magical creation, and ready to start their quicker or slower descent into solidification into material existence; and thirdly, the chaos which is actually confusion of the messed up polarities, apparently pure tumult whose origin escapes us and thus appears as a mysterium tremendum or just psychological crisis, resulting from the process of magnetic reversal of the forces that the mind cannot identify itself with any longer. A lightning-storm is pretty good analogy or symbol for the latter two, and contemplating its formation we might understand something new about the magic of Fohat, or living electricity that both harnesses and is harnessed by the magician.
Hmmm… that’s a good analogy. In a lightning storm, the polarities are separated by friction and if the difference aka voltage is high enough to overcome the resistance of the air, a lightning is born. That would be chaos No. 3, I guess. The lightning as a result of messed up polarities, an unexpected and unpredictable manifestation of shifting energies. The resistance that would be able to block such a result to a unto certain point is also something to think about because it depends on variable circumstances.
“Granny Weatherwax was not lost. She wasn't the kind of person who ever became lost. It was just that, at the moment, while she knew exactly where SHE was, she didn't know the position of anywhere else.”
(Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters)

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