Chaos

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
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RPSTOVAL
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Re: Chaos

Postby RPSTOVAL » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:17 am

I'm reading Liber Null (Carroll) at the moment. I've always kind of seen Chaos Magick as a joke but the book is interesting. It quite clearly owes many ideas from Spare and little convenient borrowings from Crowley but again, the book and message of Null is interesting
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RPSTOVAL
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Re: Chaos

Postby RPSTOVAL » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:20 am

The thing in Liber Null about aiming to not breath for 30 minutes made me chuckle :mrgreen:
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Re: Chaos

Postby obnoxion » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:09 pm

RPSTOVAL wrote:I'm reading Liber Null (Carroll) at the moment. I've always kind of seen Chaos Magick as a joke but the book is interesting. It quite clearly owes many ideas from Spare and little convenient borrowings from Crowley but again, the book and message of Null is interesting
Here the concept of chaos stems primarily - am I right - from the mathematics of dynamics, that we all learnt from the first Jurassic Park movie back in the day.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Chaos

Postby Yinlong » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:00 pm

I hope - too - that not derailing things. Considering the name of the topic, I guess some derailing is allowed ;)

Also, I guess some people already will at least smile (knowing already my course of thoughts and books I tend to read) that I start approaching the subject - Chaos - following way (Yes, Way = Tao, pun intended):
1. My starting point is formless - formed, lower world - upper world (Finnish mythology: alinen, ylinen), yin - yang etc. The funny little things sparkling, acting and found in the "middle"
2. Why most of these conversations are difficult is the reason we force formal (albeit beautifully poetic, it's been joy to read, fratres) words on these things that just cannot be totally brought to words or even our consciousness. Although, I very much think it's worth trying since it leads to new thoughts and understanding between us and our experiences. However, the conversation to remain fruitful we must be very much embracing oneness and not taking things too literally.
3. My dear friend often recommends books by Robert M. Pirsig to understand my approach to chaos, formlessness etc. and the acts in the middle that spring from there. Funny thing, I have never read any, but I understand that we have drawn thinking partly from the same sources.
4. Also, lately, I have started to invest my design thinking and related mathematics and "mathematics" - maybe that would be the notorious or so called meta-mathematics to form structure to the approaches, not the the things themselves. Learning perhaps "R" or some other related computer / logical language might help, or some thinkers like Tononi or just complex system theories - I truly believe they are applicable to approach chaotic things, wherever they appear.
5. Yes, there are truly "chaotic" things in human and cosmological sense, no matter how intelligent we become. I just think that partly our meditative and philosophical approaches get so tainted when talking personally (and I mean, just writing about these things) that Occultism and religious / poetic language is at the moment most we have, especially on this thread ;)
6. I truly hope I made same sense when writing these. I can try to open up my thinking later in case somebody is interested. Now I have a bit mundane tasks at hand so I think I'll return to this later.
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Re: Chaos

Postby Nefastos » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:23 pm

Yinlong wrote:Why most of these conversations are difficult is the reason we force formal (albeit beautifully poetic, it's been joy to read, fratres) words on these things that just cannot be totally brought to words or even our consciousness.


I have come to understood that for at least some people who believe strongly in Chaos the bolded part is a very important part of their faith. Idea that there is something in the universe that cannot be fathomed, even theoretically, by anyone. In the other words, it comes close to agnosticism, but chooses a different – more poetic, as you said – vocabulary.

My own idea is the opposite, since for me the "universal mind" is what is the real reason (using the double meaning of the word here) behind the whole cosmos. Our profane human minds understand next to nothing, with this I agree. We could easily say: nothing at all. All true realization comes from Manas, the overmind, which is in all the way superhuman and not "rational" in the word's usual blunt, mechanistical connotations.

So, I think that the idea of "Chaos" of anti-rational instead of super-rational actually stems from the culture that has dismally misunderstood how the intellect works in the first place. Such a wrong idea of reason should be fought against, yes, but once again, the baby is thrown away with the bath water if we assume that "NO ONE can understand". A nirvanee can, as can anyone to a degree he has some "nirvanee" in him, i.e. to the degree his Manas has fully blossomed. It does so by transcending the "forms" you mentioned, the kâma manasic logic which has been just a fractured reflection of a reflection to begin with.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Chaos

Postby Yinlong » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:10 pm

Nefastos wrote:
I have come to understood that for at least some people who believe strongly in Chaos the bolded part is a very important part of their faith. Idea that there is something in the universe that cannot be fathomed, even theoretically, by anyone. In the other words, it comes close to agnosticism, but chooses a different – more poetic, as you said – vocabulary.
I actually mostly agree with everything you wrote. I've been recently thinking: maybe it's just somehow inbuilt to my (personal and so forth) nature - or maybe I kind of just like to add always the maybes and may bes - if it could be expressed such a way :) This has led me to think and ask: is there such a thing as "True Agnosticism"? Though, then again my polar motor probably requires the possibilities here and there, partly unresolvedness is good - it's the adventurous and the adventures that kinda still keep me going. Poor man's Corto Maltese again, I guess ;)
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Re: Chaos

Postby Hoenir » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:26 pm

To be honest, i don't understand anymore what people mean by "chaos". I can understand its meaning when it is used in "phenomenological", psychological or existential contexts, but if it used in metaphysical framework, it seems to be grounded on quite strong pre-understanding of "order" and "intelligibility". To be sure, there truly are something which we cant comprehend or determinate, but even though this is true, i favor the idea which Johannes said earlier: chaos as "anti-rational" (or: anti-human!) force is somehow misleading and suspicious. But in my opinion, we shouldn't still think that the "true" reality behind these "appearances" is perfectly rational (not even in the "Manas"-sense), and we feel something "chaotic" because we just don't understand reality. I think that there are real differences, gaps and disturbances, and even though part of our existence is one of those, we shouldn't conclude that everything is broken because of that. Contingency is tragic, but it cannot swallow everything ordered, determinable and good, because it is unable to exist itself without these things. This means that "chaos" and "order" belong together in concrete existence, and this finitude of life itself is probably the greatest existential/spiritual challenge for those who still try to believe in goodness.

So if there is god, he is finite and the world is still meaningful, intelligible and worth of saving. And if i am right, then the whole distinction between chaos and order is suspicious, because it can be seen as an attempt of purifying (completely) something which is essentially dirty and unclean. Notice that this isn't argument against faith (faith is practically justified) but it is an argument against naive idealism, strong dualism, escapism and too stiff view of unity.
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Re: Chaos

Postby Insanus » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:06 pm

Hoenir wrote:To be honest, i don't understand anymore what people mean by "chaos".
This is at what at least I mean by chaos. Chaos "shows" itself in this "I don't understand".
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Re: Chaos

Postby obnoxion » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:46 am

Insanus wrote:
Hoenir wrote:To be honest, i don't understand anymore what people mean by "chaos".
This is at what at least I mean by chaos. Chaos "shows" itself in this "I don't understand".
I think I might finally get what you are meaning. I see this as a sort of spirituality that rises from recognition of fluid aspect of existence that manifests itself in constant transformations. This can lead to a curious blend of a deep sense of mystery, and skepticism that occasionally borders on sanctified nihilism.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Re: Chaos

Postby Noname » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:39 am

Sex-Death of language is not paying tribute to the obedience of language, but wherein one fornicates with universal life that the words convey, whilst the means of communication are nothing but a corpse of a bride to the listener. This is why poetry is a good demon, the redemptive dream – of the philosopher.

Since one cannot be determined by the archaic structures of our language nor can one be captured therein, there is a method in this madness, to allow oneself to seek oneself to their fullest potential without artificial structures of the psyche being in the way, allowing total immersion with one’s subconsciousness. One who masters such form of art can only be considered divinely mad, a sage who knows the winding paths of the realms of twilight.

And there is great beauty, for such method allows interpretation of meaning from something completely devoid of it; to answer all questions yet queried through the act of penetrating the seeming order of things into theoretical chaos of potential. Then how can such chaos reply but through a black phosphorescent mirror of the sky, albeit the questioner is seemingly nothing but a terrorist against order, the trick here is that divine providence has no need for theory, or a terrorist.

So then what is chaos but the consort of order, one who let's his children play.
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