Adoration of Suffering

[Nefastos]

The question is, can adoration of suffering be actually a part of the path of ascension, or is it per se a feature or a symptom of the path of descension?

I think the latter, because the defining element of the path of descension is just that it accepts suffering caused to others. And what is my self if not a, or even the "other"?

Of course, when we come to processes (phases in one's occult psychology) rather than one's defining, chosen philosophy, things always get more complicated. As in, a martyr might have that kind of a downward path element in his world view even though on a long run he still is advancing rather than regressing in the path of unity.

[Insanus]

I think the latter, because the defining element of the path of descension is just that it accepts suffering caused to others. And what is my self if not a, or even the "other"?

But what is suffering? What causes us to suffer? Can I understand the nature of suffering without accepting it & can I choose not to cause it without that understanding?

[Nefastos]

Can I understand the nature of suffering without accepting it & can I choose not to cause it without that understanding?

Yes, I believe so.

For here we have again these twins of paradox: objective and subjective.

In an "objective" way, the way of total oneness (absolute), suffering must be "good". This, however, can only be understood de facto by those mystics & nirvanîs who have already "coquered the world" and attained an absolute union. It is something that transcends individual(ity) and foundations of moral reasoning. And thus, those (ex-) people who have attained that stage are no longer here to make any statements. They are no longer subjective persons, and no longer have thought processes as we understand thought processes.

In a "subjective" way, suffering is precisely that what is wrong and evil: wrong and evil have no other meaning, ultimately.

And thus, even if we reason that because suffering belongs to the absolute and is therefore something that we must "undergo to understand", this is in diametrical opposition to the subjective way. The problem of the downward path is not, cannot be in that it raises against God (for how could anything truly oppose the Absolute? There is no way, or it would not be Absolute), but that it raises against the subjective, i.e. chooses that which is accepts suffering. For God, no one is a sinner.

[Insanus]

I don't quite understand. If
1) the mystical attainment is realizing suffering as "good", and
2) subjectively suffering is "evil"

why do you think that the adoration of suffering is not the best but the worst way of seeking that attainment? Could you elaborate?

The way I see it is as follows: human beings suffer, and they cause others to suffer. Who did what is irrelevant, it's a human problem and as a human being I have responsibility the realization being "I am responsible for human suffering". This extreme burden, call it karmic or existential or whatever you want is not subjective in the separatist sense even though you could call it subjective in the sense that the world is -of course- perceived subjectively. Now the question of human suffering is a) how do I (human) cause others to suffer b) why do I do it? The self-immolating behavior is not the privilege of the followers of the downward path - we simply are in the mouth of Leviathan. The objection to this, namely "hating God" is one way of transmutating psychological attachment and/or energy. In my opinion the adoration of suffering is (similarly) invoking God into my psyche, aiming for oneness with karma or just simply becoming consciously responsible.

[Sebomai]

I agree with fra. Nefastos. At least for me, myself. I've been lost in a whirlwind of suffering being my religion and it's been dragging me very close to the path of descension. I'm scared and trying to drag myself back from the edge.

The path of ascension is beautiful and I need to see that beauty again and stop myself from seeing suffering not as a way to learn but as a goal in itself.

And I don't think the reason I got close to the path of descension is because I am a sadist. I think I'm a misguided empath who feels that suffering is good in itself so that hidden lust for suffering threatens to blend into my love for others and the desire for Oneness leads me to think that we should all be one in anguish.

It's sick and I need to avoid it. Without doing violence to myself. I really needed to read this thread. It made some scary but important stuff clear to me.

[Sebomai]

To be clear: I have not been doing violence to others to make them suffer because of this misguided idea. The violence has all been directed inwards. It is still unhealthy and needs to be corrected, but philosophically, I still stand against violence on principle. Nevertheless, I realize now that I've been worshipping the mask of Satan, not honoring his essence.