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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:59 pm
by Fomalhaut
This topic is a very bitter one for me to open but I will explain it below why I have opened it after this paragraph. I had it in my lifely very intensively, I lost a very close relative while I was a 8-9 years old boy. I had big traumas, they were not to be get over in any manner. Than while I was at the age of 15, I survived an earthquake, nearly 50000 people died in my hometown, while I was about to get over one trauma another one hit me. I cannot deny the fact that I had been suicidal during my life for many times. But after some point I have started to be against it for many years for different reasons.

Well, this is the video which made me open this subject. I thought why we do not have any topic about this subject in the forum:

It tells at the beginning of this small documentary that Mt. Fuji errupted in year 864 and the forest grew over dried lava. An eruption of a mountain, lava, which would melt any being to death in a few seconds got dried as it would be but there grew trees at the end. Death brought life: a living forest. What might be the reason those people were so intensively suiciding there? What can be the reason(s) why people do suicide? There are many reasons for it: sociological, psychological, etc. But can the reason be beyond those mundane terms and meanings? What are your opinions for this topic?

Re: Suicide

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:51 pm
by Benemal
I did not know mt. Fuji is suicide spot. The reason is probably, that it's sacred to the Japanese. It is a beautiful mountain, which i think i will see some day.

How did it affect you, to be present in such a big disaster? How would you be different now, if you never experienced that? As Finland is practically disaster free, that has not affected our psychology, though man-made disasters are even worse.

I have known about five people who killed themselves. I was just thinking about these things yesterday. One was my dad's brother. He drank himself to death. This is what my father did too, but for some reason, didn't die. Also my grandmother would rather die, than be a burden, so she let herself die. One friend wouldn't let a serious illness affect his lifestyle, so he died. One librarian lost her job and shot herself. A schoolfriend got a broken heart and hanged himself. The one that really affected me was a really good friend. His downward spiral was started by a girls suicide. He was a kindred spirit. The kind of person who just understands. He actually warned me, that he would soon do it. There was no plea for help, he just told me so that i wouldn't be shocked when it happened. Of course i was shocked and stunned. Writing about it makes me cry. I don't know when was the last time.

Re: Suicide

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:06 am
by Nefastos
Fomalhaut wrote:An eruption of a mountain, lava, which would melt any being to death in a few seconds got dried as it would be but there grew trees at the end. Death brought life: a living forest.

Brings to mind Dante's forest of suicides, where people who killed themselves became trees. That's incredibly powerful picture: beings that have given away their ability to move, in too ardent a try for doing just that - move away from the place of life undesired.

Not that I am judging. I just am convinced that the mind lasts longer than the body, and can't rush into perfection of darkness by violence; and neither can it shake the mundane shackles that way, instead becoming imprisoned into that limbo state: not being this nor that, but between two states of consciousness. Death corresponds to green things growing, the plant kingdom, as we see in classic Tarot arcana XIII.

Personally I find life down here so abysmal that suicide has been in my mind a thousand times, of which a couple of dozen very seriously. But slowly, as the decades pass & one just keeps going on after some self-chosen motivational carrot - be it a coffee break or an occult initiation - it gets a little easier. I think most of the suicides are made by people who do not think that option very much, at least not in earnest. In that way excessive emotional states will more easily lead to that extremely bad choice.

Bad it isn't because it would be morally wrong or cowardly, as I have heard some people claiming, but because it just doesn't help.

Still, I can imagine myself choosing suicide in some truly extreme situation: if facing intolerable agony, for example. I might be strong enough to suffer it through, but I wouldn't count on it.

Re: Suicide

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:28 pm
by Sebomai
The love of my life committed suicide in 2007. I knew she would someday but, at the time, I thought I'd do it before she did. She was getting her life on track and I was not, but underneath it all, she was rapidly spiraling out of control completely. I have been hospitalized two times for suicide attempts, both of which very easily could have succeeded, and a couple of other times, I placed myself in the hospital so I would not attempt or commit suicide.

Generally, I think suicide is chosen by people who see no options. Whether it's the case or not, feeling that you cannot make any choices that will improve your life or your state of mind leads many to think that ending it all is a viable option.

Also, and this is not to diminish the anguish that people are going through, but attention seekers aside, there are people who talk about, attempt, or even successfully commit suicide because they are screaming out, "WON'T SOMEONE ON THIS GODFORSAKEN PLANET SEE HOW MUCH PAIN I AM IN????" I know that's a place I've been at before.

Even in a case like Jon Nodveidt of Dissection... he stated that his life's work was done... that there was nothing left he could do... isn't that just another variety of feeling like one has no options?

Re: Suicide

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:09 am
by Insanus
Those people who claim suicide is morally wrong, because it causes suffering to your close ones, or because it's cowardly don't seem to understand that a suicidal person might actually suffer somewhat himself and he also might be sort of afraid of life continuing. Selfish? How someone's getting rid of himself is selfish is something I have never quite understood. And the only heal those good, morally sound people offer for that suffering and fear is the tautology that your thoughts and emotions considering suicide are wrong because they are thoughts and emotions considering suicide. It's like those so-called nice people trying to help wanted to show their high moral-middle finger to your grave. Okay, well fuck you very much for your support. It's something that really makes me angry and there are not many of those things. How can someone possibly tell a person willing to die that there are certain rules about when it's okay to suffer and when it's not. Who cares whether there's life after death or not when there's no life even before that death...

Most if not all of my close ones have been self-destructive/suicidal. I myself was quite suicidal some years ago and that was pretty much like what is described in Discordamelior in Fosforos. My thinking was pretty much what's discussed in "The World as Power"-topic, but without Love. I actively tried to force my mind to think "in terms of the Absolute only" about which there's been talk in the "Unity vs. Diversity"-topic. I thought that suicide cannot be a choice, but a result of surrendering my own will to some other being's will and therefore I tried to get into complete state of possession through trances, visualizations, meditations &c. to be able to do as much "evil" as is possible. I thought that by mutilating myself and making my mind as chaotic as possible I'd get as far from God as can be & that it'd be perfect blasphemy to end up killing myself while embracing the idea of Unity. It makes no sense, I know, embracing unity and shattering everything to pieces. It was kind of living two contradicting lives at the same time. Kind of understanding the oneness of all and that "Love is the Law", but on the other hand seeing the possibility of doing wrong. And because something being wrong was impossible in unity I tried to force that feeling away from myself, and there I cut off my tools for Love so that the universe could make sense to my ego.
All that was "wrong" at any point was of course just my interpretation.

I think that exactly the experience of being separated is the main reason for all self-destructiveness from sociological, psychological and even (maybe especially) from an occult point of view. When Feudalism turned into Capitalism people no longer had specific place in the society determined, which in practice meant that every individual is alone against the rest of the world, trying to survive with the laws of the market. As a side note, this is the ground for the false view that human is just a selfish and cruel animal. There's no scientific proof for that claim, it's "just" a twisted belief-system.

But there's no need to talk about self-destructiveness and suicide only in negative light, there can be lots of joy (even if it's very painful & dark) in them. Actually "in them" is a very bad way of saying it, maybe it should be said that they represent that joy. But then again, physical suicide or self-destruction is certainly "just a symbol", but so is everything else "down here". Personal ego denying existence is a contradicting idea, because it doesn't exist itself, so it can't deny anything. Actually it can't even do anything on it's own. That's why I don't believe suicide is a choice, but a result. I'm just proving that to myself.
That Dissection case...I have understood that he was kind of "evil-worshiping"-type of satanist?

Good thread, I think this is one of the most important topics to discuss in a satanist forum, both in practice and as a symbol. There's so much to say about this, and it'd be a beautiful thing if someone going through difficult times could find some inspiration here. I know I found lots of it from the Finnish forums.

Re: Suicide

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:30 pm
by Benemal
Some of us would not be here, if we believed there was an escape in suicide. There is no escape. What you hate and fear, will stay with you. When i realized this fact, i found a paradoxical freedom behind it. There can be no freedom, without being conscious of limitations. These limits weigh us down like heavy chains. It is really a physical sensation as well as existential. There is a very small comfort, in knowing that my life has meaning and if i had killed myself, that would have made the world a little worse.

Re: Suicide

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:47 am
by Fomalhaut
Benemal wrote: How did it affect you, to be present in such a big disaster? How would you be different now, if you never experienced that? As Finland is practically disaster free, that has not affected our psychology, though man-made disasters are even worse.
It effected me negatively lots in many ways, it is really hard to write it, would take probably pages. But I think it is one of the major things which made me who I am nowadays. I remember it everyday, but I somehow learned to live with it and I am learning new lessons from it everyday, when I think about it. To be honest, it was also a man-made disaster. The scale of the earthquake was huge, but if you know in most earthquakes in Japan, no people die or the number of death people is so little because they build their houses strongly (there are some exceptions where many people died in some of their earthquakes, but they are exceptions). It was found out after the earthquake in my hometown that most of the construction building companies stole material from the construction, so most of the buildings crushed down because of that. So it was also a man-made disaster in that scale.

Re: Suicide

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:22 am
by Nefastos
There's one thing I almost never have discussed, but which brother Wyrmfang brought up in recent conversation elsewhere (in the Finnish forum). It's grace, i.e. "mercy from above", understood in a metaphysical sense.

I think this idea comes a major one when we discuss suicide. For although I think one can't actually flee life's distress via killing himself, I also don't believe in eternal damnation. Rather, "salvation" becomes an act of grace.

But that mercy is not in "God's" hands, for there is no God to torment mankind and so, no God to deliver them. God is not at all like Christians think, but much more mysterious, awesome, and therefore even terrible. Mercy is in people's own hands: in the hands of a suicide, and in the hands of other beings who can interact with these habitants of the underworld. And to certain point, we all can, and do. We can redeem each other, and also ourselves - but the first only by love, and the latter only by understanding (complete honesty).

I wanted to add this, because so many here have lost their loved ones. I do not believe there are good people whose spirits dwell long times in states of hell, because they are helped by our love & their own processes of gradual understanding. The people who will live in hell "for eternity" (that is, extremely long periods) are those who don't want to understand, nor love. These are the "failures in spirit", that the nature has no option but to absorb slowly into chaos. If there's even a tiny spark of true spirit, it will be freed comparatively soon. The act of suicide is a hindrance to one's spiritual life, but not by any means a total fall. Law of secret nature is not as cruel as the law of man, even if it can be cruel enough.

Re: Suicide

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:42 pm
by Sebomai
Thank you, fra. Nefastos for your response. I actually got tears in my eyes reading it. My Janine, she knew how to love, just couldn't take life's pain any longer. She wasn't weak, she was horribly tormented. And reading what you said, makes me feel so much better about it. It's been years and I haven't been able to come to terms with it yet, not entirely. But what you wrote, moves me much closer than I think I've ever been before.

Incidentally, one of the very last things she did in her life was mail me a letter... no signature... no return address... but I recognized the stationery from when she'd purchased it... and all it said was, "I love you still."

Re: Suicide

Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:28 pm
by emmy
I am so sorry to those of you who had lost their loved ones. I had lost a great friend as well, but what do you do with the anger an resentment that comes up at times towards them. Yes, it was horrible to go do, and sometimes i do get angry at him for doing that.