Sex

[Vavrinec]

Thank you for your comments, you made some interesting points. I especially agree with educating those trapped souls on Earth. I still disagree with your position on romantic love. Maybe I should clarify my position. That love you refer to that comes from Venus, is how you state all love begins. This is in relationship to the initial desire that extends from attraction that appears between two people. You stated that there are two types of romantic love, one that stems from initial attraction, desire, & the other which must grow into a bonding or mutual admiration. Is this my correct interpretation? If so I don't agree with that assumption. I've only seen the latter form of love, between couples, when the sexual element has been removed. The idea of unconditional romantic love is nothing but a myth. Being an American I was raised on the happily ever after syndrome just as much as everyone else. It is the one thing about American culture I find abhorrent. The unrealistic notions people in my country have, especially about sex & love, is that they are equal. Sex & love are two different things. One extends from primal urge to reproduce, the other from an instinctual urge to belong to a unit, or, pack mentality. Humans are social animals. We will bond either with other humans or other animals, with similar communal urges - like dogs, to fulfill our natural instincts. All sex is lust. Romantic love is a myth.

[Nefastos]

Sex is a complex thing, because I have sometimes felt sexually connected to nature, during spring when everything is happening therein and I'm on a stroll in the woods. I don't walk around thinking "that's one damn hot tree right there!" but rather I sense and feel those currents around me, and it's very powerful.

Since Venus – in its both principles of erotic love & manasic intellect, which shatters the common way of seeing nature - is my own guiding star, I even do that. It has been extremely interesting to see how several things, including hyper-energization (being in an interactive flow of forces with the surroundings) and sexual fetishes (mind and nerves' modal response to bare symbols) together can create like a being with semi-complete principles out of inhuman parts, making up sexual trees, for example. And since I personally even speak of seemingly inanimate things with personal pronouns &c., seeing everything as animate (in its own way), the gap is not so wide for me that it is for many.

Of course, having that warm "sexual" feeling for a tree that you love in many levels (buddhic, sentimental, aesthetic, of which the latter can even border to fetishistic), is far from saying that the sexuality of a tree is similar to that of human beings: I do not wish to have an intercourse with a tree. But now we also come to a quite interesting socio-psychological level of sexual feelings. Should I been born to a culture that practices sexual intercourse with trees, such a yearning would be easily invoked. One can consider how such a subconscious will-aspect of sexuality works with one's relatives, for example. Mind works with these things with great care, be it conscious or unconscious. Especially interesting it is for an occultist in the Left Path of Ascension, who (a) needs to understand all his secret urges instead of suppressing them in a way that people usually do, but who yet (b) has to work in an ethical way not only in physical, but even mental levels. For like the occultist knows, should s/he give in to his or her sexual attractions, they have their effect on other people even if nothing would be said. So, this is a long process to go through.

Back to our discussion with Vavrinec:

You stated that there are two types of romantic love, one that stems from initial attraction, desire, & the other which must grow into a bonding or mutual admiration. Is this my correct interpretation? If so I don't agree with that assumption.

Yes and no. As I said above in my answer to sister Heith, I consider that one's erotic feelings also have this either subconscious or conscious aspect of will. Physical desire's will-aspect is very interesting, and I don't even try to force it in a nutshell here, but I would like to underline that it always there in one way or another, or actually, in several contradictory ways at once. Only a very high adept would be so whole in his psychology that he would fully "control" (i.e. realize) his love, and there would be not a speck of personal selfishness. Yet I see that all people are in some or other rung of that ladder of transforming complete animal selfishness (which, for animals, is not selfishness at all, but purely natural and good) into that high adept's unconditioned love that is the source of his miracle-making power of complete oneness.

And thus, there can be said to be both kinds of sexual attraction, the one which is more animal, and the one that is more mental. Both of these can grow or change (when the temperaments of the lovers are working in harmonious synergy, the one which usually must be chosen to work with by them both) into a "romantic" love. Either of these are then, to some degree - and possibly to a very high - true romantic feelings, in which there is not false egotism but an actual unity of two different beings under the enchantment of each other. That fascination is something true, it is not illusory. Rather, its illusority is similar to the colors in Rembrandt's painting: of course they are not the "real" colors of a "real" moment, but something that belongs to an artificial world, but just because of that astral nature of both romantic love and art, those enchantments are even more "real" in a way that is our natural outside world. Illusion is not the same as falseness, but can actually create something that is closer to the truth, spiritual world of virtues & absolute values as real archetypes.

I've only seen the latter form of love, between couples, when the sexual element has been removed. The idea of unconditional romantic love is nothing but a myth.

I understand. Unconditional romantic love is as hard to find as any other unconditional virtue. Our humankind is still so undeveloped that all such things are extremely rare, if we do not count their presence in the "ore" of yet unpurified human feelings. If we seek it outside of ourselves, it is almost certain that we will never find it. But as an alchemist who has even a tiny bit of gold in his possession can create more gold by the Great Work, in the same way we can create pure feelings from ourselves to the outside world, even though we are mostly very imperfect mortals. For all the lasting work goes by small degrees and seemingly endless backlashes & regressions, especially at first.

Being an American I was raised on the happily ever after syndrome just as much as everyone else. It is the one thing about American culture I find abhorrent. The unrealistic notions people in my country have, especially about sex & love, is that they are equal.

American culture is pretty much the world's culture at the moment, it seems: because so much of all the popular culture either is done in America or follows the American trends, even here in Europe we are quite Americanized. I must confess that I hated it when I was younger, there were so many false ideals and thinly veiled hypocrite egotism. (How many American films have we seen where the hero is ready to sacrifice millions if he can only save his wife, children or parents? For a European mind, that just screams selfishness glorified.) But of course, any culture has its weak & strong points, I don't see that there usually is more or less of either in any single culture. The gap just is particularly wide between the American dreaming of the "happy us" (and let the other world burn if it must) and the asocial moping of the extraordinarily low self-esteem Finns.

(Sorry about the off-topic, but I think that in an international forum it is good to come to remember the possibly differing cultural points of view every once in a while.)

Sex & love are two different things. One extends from primal urge to reproduce, the other from an instinctual urge to belong to a unit, or, pack mentality. Humans are social animals. We will bond either with other humans or other animals, with similar communal urges - like dogs, to fulfill our natural instincts. All sex is lust. Romantic love is a myth.

I see your point, which, I think, is pretty much the same as LaVeyan Satanism's approach to love & sexuality. What do you think about the Church of Satan's doctrines, and where do you disagree with them? I think that your answer to this question might possibly bring about some interesting points to build bridges between our seemingly opposite ideas about possibility of true or romantic love.

[Vavrinec]

In response to your question concerning Laveyean Satanism philosophy & the philosophical school of thought I subscribe to is this: Laveyean Satanism is all about materialism, meaning, the satisfying of one's urges & the 'Pleasure Principle' as I call it. The Church of Satan does nothing, nor teaches anything related to the nurturing of the 'Spirit' or related to the inner being. My own personal philosophy, stems from the point of view, 'To know thyself', which implies the contemplation of the inner most being or Essence that exists within each & everyone of us. It is the removal of distractions that keeps us from finding out who we really are as beings & how we relate to the Source (Universal Consciousness), Nature, God, or whatever one might call it. Spirituality or spiritualism, nontheism, I don't really subscribe to either. I see the world's peoples as being essentially, spirit deprived, & emotionally unstable. As a race & people, we fill our emotionally deprived spirits with drugs, alcohol, sex, & other pursuits that might fulfill a temporary emotional need, but doesn't serve us in the long run in nurturing our Spirits or inner most being. The same goes for the world's religions, none serve the spiritual welfare of the individual or community as a whole. Religion has become a commodity in which to sell, through donations & tithes, a feel good notion. Just another short lived material distraction. I see material pursuits, (besides eating, drinking, & exercising, or nurturing the physical body) as irrelevant. Yes we have to work to feed & clothe ourselves, but we don't have to follow animalistic urges either. Sex for the sake of sex or just for pleasure is a material pursuit & has nothing to do with spirit. It is a distraction, even if you profess your undying love to the one your fornicating with, it's still just a material distraction then its back to the real world.

[Demergon]

I on the other hand absolutely believe in unconditional love. I am a very romantic person, and denying this seems extremely cynical to me.
Drawing parallels between base biological needs and making love (if that actually _is_ what it's said to be), just does not make sense.
There can be such beauty and intense feeling of belonging and kinship involved, that I simply can not make myself compare it to eating or sleeping or other trivial actions.
It is de facto one of the greater feelings of magic and true oneness you can achieve, if with the right person.
Just sayin'.

[Heith]

I've also thought that is it possible that this question is approached a little differently by each of us due to our cultural backgrounds? Vavrinec mentioned about being from the US, and the "ideals of romance" are certainly very different in there -at least from how it appears by observing this question from northern Europe. I almost think that they are sort of commercial fluff. We for example don't have a similar dating culture (although maybe that doesn't exist in the US anymore either), we don't have valentine's day in that way, and I also think that the "expectations" for men and woman are different in here than in the US. With that said, I of course understand that the US is a huge place, and things differ from one place and community to another. We actually have a member who has moved from Europe to the US, and would be interesting to hear what they think about this seeing they know a bit of both places.

I certainly don't believe in the kind of puppy-eyed idea of romance either. But I most definitely believe there can be such a thing as a soulmate, a deep bond with another person. A connection that is sexual, romantic, caring.

Interestingly, esoteric work can become quite close to this. It feels that one's being starts to become somehow merged with work partner/s, even if no sexual element is involved. I have many a experience where I can anticipate the thoughts or feelings of my work partner/s. I also believe that the work that we do, is achieved only under unconditional love.

I on the other hand absolutely believe in unconditional love. I am a very romantic person, and denying this seems extremely cynical to me. (underline mine)

Yes, I feel this way too.

[Thelithiz]

You fall in love and are in seventh heaven but after this honeymoon this feeling fades and problems arise.

I haven't experienced neither of those, and maybe I would not like to!

i haven't seen any virgin with so much self-confidence than those who aren't.

I haven't noticed any difference. But I guess being seen, and accepted "naked" makes many people feel more confident and whole. Everyone needs that in a way or another, which can be seen sad and childish or as a beautiful thing.

One thing I have learned concerning sex is that love has nothing to do with it.

These two can be as well separated as together. Depends on a person. Maybe you just haven't had that kind of relationship For a long time I didn't understand at all love or sexuality and thought them only nature's tool for procreation, what I felt wrong in many ways. I guess my wiev is slowly changing...

I have to say that for me there can not be sex if I do not love my partner.

I definitely agree. Having sex with someone requires really so ultimate trust and everything that I doubt I will never be able to do it properly. This may be a matter of gender: it seems to me that usually men consider sex as a way to get know his partner better and become closer, or to relax and feel good. And women need to be good friends with the other, they have to be relaxed and feel good for having sex. But here I generalize too much.

I think I also feel at springtime those energetic flows. They are sometimes almost unbearably strong and do overload me. I haven't consider them as sexual, more like birth/ forming , but why not.

There can be seen many different kinds of love, but it is always a personal experience and has many forms/ aspects/ grades. And they are still all the same thing (with different emphasis). Believing some kind of love is after all just, does one believe it becoming possible in hir own life?

[Sothoth]

Finnish Yle is showing interesting documentary series about sex and the troubled relationship Western world has with the subject. It is found at least here. The documentary is in English, although on a Finnish site. This is really important topic in my opinion. First there was suppression of sex because of Christianity and nowadays there is an obsession in sex. This is the astral collective pendulum ruling the western world and its relationship towards sexuality. Either sexuality is demonized or people are obsessed by it. Neither way is good.

[Jiva]

Finnish Yle is showing interesting documentary series about sex and the troubled relationship Western world has with the subject. It is found at least here. The documentary is in English, although on a Finnish site. This is really important topic in my opinion. First there was suppression of sex because of Christianity and nowadays there is an obsession in sex. This is the astral collective pendulum ruling the western world and its relationship towards sexuality. Either sexuality is demonized or people are obsessed by it. Neither way is good.

Unfortunately, I can’t view the documentary, but it looks really interesting. The ways in which approaches to sex have evolved throughout history are fascinating to me. But, at least in the modern world, I see things rather differently than you. The suppression of sex often goes hand in hand with an obsession with sex. It’s fairly well known that, for example, the states in the USA with more repressive religious attitudes towards sex typically consume the most internet porn. Living in Amsterdam is interesting regarding this, because there is a clear difference of opinion in relation to sex. It’s simple to see a prostitute or go to a live sex show etc., but Dutch people don’t seem to make a big deal out of it whereas tourists are often somewhat obsessed – often it's the single reason they come here. Basically, sex is much more normalised and public here, therefore it’s much less fascinating than if the subject was hidden and certainly less shameful than if it was religiously proscribed.

My opinion on the whole matter is that I don’t necessarily consider sex and love separate, but don’t define love as being romantically involved with someone. The longest sexual relationship I’ve ever had was simply with a friend, during which time we both openly slept with other people. I don’t particularly see any problem with sexual urges or things like drugs etc. as long as they don’t dominate one's life. I’m not a monk and don’t think that denying, repressing or trying to explain away something is useful in the slightest, either in the modern religious way (it’s a sin) or in the older Platonic way (the difference between higher and lower loves and thus something to overcome).

I haven't noticed any difference. But I guess being seen, and accepted "naked" makes many people feel more confident and whole. Everyone needs that in a way or another, which can be seen sad and childish or as a beautiful thing.

Well, this is another cultural difference, but I guess having a sauna with people is a form of feeling accepted naked? I know many people who would simply refuse to be naked around anyone else in this manner. Even in the Netherlands, wearing swimming shorts is mandatory at my gym’s sauna.

[Thelithiz]

Well, this is another cultural difference, but I guess having a sauna with people is a form of feeling accepted naked? I know many people who would simply refuse to be naked around anyone else in this manner. Even in the Netherlands, wearing swimming shorts is mandatory at my gym’s sauna.

I did not mean naked in a physical sense, but I don't know how to explain it otherwise. It is very unwanted (but still the most needed) feeling to be seen as one is, with hir vulnerability, and that cannot be shown to anyone. No-one usually wants to be naked in sauna with strangers but it is mandatory here