Death

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
Wyrmfang
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Re: Death

Postby Wyrmfang » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:27 pm

Nefastos wrote:
Wyrmfang wrote:For example Husserl thought consciousness of one´s death to be the main condition for proper self-consciousness.


Which leaves a question whether the kind of religious people who believe in some kind of an immortal soul are living in denial, i.e. without a proper individualization.
Not at all. Phenomenology does not take any stance concerning factual questions beyond our immediate experience. No matter how certainly you believe in a certain metaphysical stance (be it materialistic, dualistic or idealistic) you have the idea of your death as this particular feeling/thinking person. Animals, babies, some mentally ill persons probably don´t. As far as I know Husserl himself had some religious convictions.
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Nefastos
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Re: Death

Postby Nefastos » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:26 pm

Isn't that a bit problematic? If one's concept of soul's immortality is just like a door closed against the fear of being annihilated. (= Changed beyond one's ability to grasp the new form in a degree it could be identified with.) Wouldn't that be just a psychological defence mechanism, instead of a real idea of one's death?

Or, if such a question is not be considered meaningful, I think it pretty much leaves us to live with only the apparitions. For anyone can say they've considered something, while actually they've just had a name for it in their mind, that would be a completely different thing - akin to the difference between a thinking man & a reacting animal. Or how do the phenomenologists approach that difference?
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Death

Postby Wyrmfang » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:56 pm

We are probably talking about different things. Husserl´s starting point is that consciousness of death is the main factor that distinguishes humans from animals. In this sense death is not an objective event, but something through which one acknowledges his finitude; in order there to be something infinite in human consciousness, there must be also something essentially finite in it (gods don´t for example lend books to each other). I have understood so that for Husserl death is the marker of this finitude, one cannot experience his own death in this sense. It is another question what death is from the viewpoint of metaphysical realism (be it materialism or idealism), that is, as a factual event.

The interesting point in this is, that if Husserl is right, death is never anything trivial; it is the crux of what it means to be a human (not psychologically but essentially).

Edit: Fra Sebomai knows more about Husserl, he may correct if I have got something wrong.
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Re: Death

Postby Nefastos » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:25 pm

Wyrmfang wrote:We are probably talking about different things. Husserl´s starting point is that consciousness of death is the main factor that distinguishes humans from animals.


This was my point too. Because of this we might deduce that there are non- or little individualized people, who because of their reactional attitude are, as with respect to this particular question, akin to animals.

Naturally the dividing line is not clear at all, but there are infinite grades or the shades of grey. Still I'm thinking that the one who can only react to psychological stimuli rather than reason with them, is necessarily "mortal", because such a person has never actually lived as a soul. That is, without a proper self-consciousness, as you put it.

And yes, I understand that this is quite a dangerous talk. The world is filled with unstable persons who tend to think other people as "animals" and themselves as the only ones with a real "soul" or a reasoning ability, & who'd gladly sacrifice thousands "of the unthinking herd" just to enfuel their own delusions of grandeur. But that is the most reactional kind of living of all. As you said in our Finnish forum, the one within whom the understanding blossoms, necessarily turns from misanthropy to some kind of philanthropy, because the state of a misanthrope or a narcissist is the most reactional way of acting. It's completely shut out all holistic understanding, i.e. growing in understanding of otherness, our necessarily mutual soil of inner development.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Death

Postby Wyrmfang » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:04 pm

Nefastos wrote:
Wyrmfang wrote:We are probably talking about different things. Husserl´s starting point is that consciousness of death is the main factor that distinguishes humans from animals.


This was my point too.
Ok, I got puzzled because it seemed to me that after my first post you took me claiming that Husserl would attribute true humanity only to materialists (which he himself allegedly was not).
Nefastos wrote:
Because of this we might deduce that there are non- or little individualized people, who because of their reactional attitude are, as with respect to this particular question, akin to animals.

Naturally the dividing line is not clear at all, but there are infinite grades or the shades of grey. Still I'm thinking that the one who can only react to psychological stimuli rather than reason with them, is necessarily "mortal", because such a person has never actually lived as a soul. That is, without a proper self-consciousness, as you put it.
I think we cannot deduce this, because from Husserl´s point of view all "normal" humans are conscious of their death, although many may very rarely psychologically or philosophically ponder on it (but it may be that from the viewpoint of metaphysical realism there is a fundamental difference between these people and those who actively reflect on the nature of their consciousness).
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Re: Death

Postby Nefastos » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:51 pm

Wyrmfang wrote:I think we cannot deduce this, because from Husserl´s point of view all "normal" humans are conscious of their death, although many may very rarely psychologically or philosophically ponder on it (but it may be that from the viewpoint of metaphysical realism there is a fundamental difference between these people and those who actively reflect on the nature of their consciousness).


Perhaps all men do, on a certain level. But I think we're in the mentioned grey area here, because it's so easy to throw away that thought about one's mortality & build mental barricades on its way. That's all I meant.

From the mentioned occultist's standpoint it's equally rare to find a man who'd die (to be changed in death) totally than to find a man who'd live through it totally (not changing at all in respect to one's values, thoughts & wholesome integrity of being: the soul).

And to clarify a little what said about the obligatory giving up of misanthropy: What I meant by was not a philosophy or a feeling, but how one actually carries out one's emotions. For that exactly, how the emotions - inner reactions - are handled out in action, not the emotions themselves, is what the living soul's development necessarily asks to cultivate.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Death

Postby Mera » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:35 am

Fomalhaut wrote:What is the importance and meaning of "Death" for you? For me it is the end of this incarnation and a new beginning at the same time. I was honestly afraid of "Death" while I was a child. As I started to grow up and think about it more- I started to think that there is nothing to be afraid of it and actually it will be a beautiful event as life itself is.

Hi Fomalhaut

I can resonate with you about how you felt about death growing up, I use to be afraid of it too, not dying as such, rather I use to have dreams of a 'death' entity, which I use to see weaving balls of death from his hands and shooting it at lands... I use to wake up really scared. I recognize death now as my guide and a teacher. I view the meaning of my dream as death calling on me to wake up from spiritual death. Not being spiritual is like being spiritually dead, once I began seeking I stopped having the death dreams.

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