Death

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
Fomalhaut
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Death

Postby Fomalhaut » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:49 pm

What is the importance and meaning of "Death" for you? For me it is the end of this incarnation and a new beginning at the same time. I was honestly afraid of "Death" while I was a child. As I started to grow up and think about it more- I started to think that there is nothing to be afraid of it and actually it will be a beautiful event as life itself is.
"I am not what happened to me, I am what I choose to become."
— C.G. Jung
Wyrmfang
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Re: Death

Postby Wyrmfang » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:55 pm

The most important thing (almost a tautology), which contemporary Western peolple don´t always remember is, that whatever death is, an absolute end or a metamorphosis, it is always natural.

My own roots are in thinking that death is a liberator from life´s pain. As a teenager I found Arthur Schopenhauer´s philosophy very appealing at this point. Later I found a certain dishonesty in this thought, a denial of life. Death can be death only in connection with life (and vice versa) and even if it is "older than life" there is a reason why life emerged from death. Nietzsche put well this point when it comes to psychology, but I would rather put it also metaphysically that affirmation of life means affirming "life beyond life and death" (the expression is from Jason Wirth, a Schelling-scholar).
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Re: Death

Postby Fomalhaut » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:22 pm

Wyrmfang wrote:The most important thing (almost a tautology), which contemporary Western peolple don´t always remember is, that whatever death is, an absolute end or a metamorphosis, it is always natural.
Can reason be that Abrahamic Religions (at least for my case Islam) are quite dogmatic and inject fear on people and do not want to give any possibility to people to think. For example; I do not find many Muslims sincere in their beliefs because they believe in Allah because of the fear of going to hell or having the right to go to heaven. When you grow up in this kind of society and environment as a child, it does not give any opportunity than being scared of death. Thinking is very important for individual to understand himself/herself.
"I am not what happened to me, I am what I choose to become."
— C.G. Jung
Wyrmfang
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Re: Death

Postby Wyrmfang » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:09 pm

Fomalhaut wrote:
Wyrmfang wrote:The most important thing (almost a tautology), which contemporary Western peolple don´t always remember is, that whatever death is, an absolute end or a metamorphosis, it is always natural.
Can reason be that Abrahamic Religions (at least for my case Islam) are quite dogmatic and inject fear on people and do not want to give any possibility to people to think. For example; I do not find many Muslims sincere in their beliefs because they believe in Allah because of the fear of going to hell or having the right to go to heaven. When you grow up in this kind of society and environment as a child, it does not give any opportunity than being scared of death. Thinking is very important for individual to understand himself/herself.
Yes, that´s how I see it too. Of course one might say that secular Western people have even more unnatural attitude towards death (stiriving towards longer and longer life etc.), but I think that´s not true when we look closer. Secular people might fear death more, but that only means they at least acknowledge their personal death. Even though hell would be fate much worse than nothingness, the fear of hell is something more concrete, which is used to bury the more difficult existential fear of death.

There is of course also the point that religious teachings interpreted esoterically might contain much deeper understanding of life and death and would therefore be preferable to secular thinking. But sadly the important thing in "religion" for most people is exactly its denial of personal death.
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Nefastos
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Re: Death

Postby Nefastos » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:38 pm

Wyrmfang wrote:Secular people might fear death more, but that only means they at least acknowledge their personal death. Even though hell would be fate much worse than nothingness, the fear of hell is something more concrete, which is used to bury the more difficult existential fear of death.


Right you are. It's interesting to notice that a lot of deeper religious practice teach that if one is not willing to give himself up to annihilation, he can't actually survive death. A grand paradox again.

I believe body's death to be a great (but often gradual) transformation - something that really changes us all the way to the deep roots of our mind. Not an end of anything, even personality, but so great an upheaval, that it would be naïve to think that it's something we can just waltz through. All that is not absolute in us will be transformed - Hell, that even happens when we live! How wouldn't that happen when we lose those organs that have upheld our thoughts? - and there are few people who have much absolute in them. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..."

With absolute, I herein mean equilibrium~unity: ability to identify oneself with so sure a value or thought that it can't be uprooted. Love or truth can be such values, but so can hate, being an absolute bondage. That is why Eliphas Levi said that the downward path leads to "immortality in evil". With absolute hatred, death can be conquered and eternal life attained. In that case that would be a life in hell, but a life nevertheless.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Death

Postby MAF » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:40 am

Death is beautiful in many ways and it is a life changing experience. Very recently my grandfather passed away unexpectedly and it was a huge shock at the time. First time in my life I have experienced it, there was much sorrow but I know he is in a much better place now. That's how I came to accept and understand death much more than I ever before. The reaction for many is anger and the question of why it happen to those they care about. I was not angry or questioning why someone who meant a lot to my family had to pass on so suddenly; but seeing it as finally they are free and not bounded by the illness of the flesh they were suffering in. They have moved forward to start a new beginning with no boundaries or limitations, freedom to do as they please. I agree the secular view of death tends to inflict fear and figuring out methods to live longer.
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Re: Death

Postby Sothoth » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:12 pm

Death makes us free from old restrictions that cause us unnecessary suffering. We can't think that we can find permanent happiness from our profane lives. Of course one can find happiness from inspirating things in his life, but one must always "memento mori" (a Latin expression whispered to the ear of a victorious warlord by a slave in ancient Rome.) because we have to be ready to abandon everything, including our personal lives. The great paradox lies in the fact that if you abandon something, you will get it. Everything has been, is and is to come and there is no beginning nor an end in this endless cosmos. Death is the beautiful unknown, awaiting to be unveiled.

Death is the highest truth. Every form is somehow insufficient, only the abstract darkness that hasn't got any substance and existence can be eternal and perfect. Although life is also a truth, because this perfect darkness has to manifest for it to be perfect. There isn't perfection without imperfection. Again a paradox.

We can consciously embrace death in our lives and thus gain potential for spiritual growth. Ordinary people don't want to change, but as occultists we should learn to die in our lives because we see how our personalities limit our lives and we must do a conscious effort to be free. This is the process of mortification.
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Seeker666
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Re: Death

Postby Seeker666 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:06 am

to me Death is a Teacher, a Mentor, a Father, a Friend, and much, much more.

Death is not simply the end of life, but an initiation to me. the cracking of the clay vessel and release of the flaming spirit through the gates to the Other.
as I was explaining to a friend earlier this evening, Death is the door and gateway between this dying world, and the Other.
it is the flame that devours and consumes, destroys and obliterates, so that a new, better, and darker/brighter Rebirth can occur.

Death's cloak is my protection I pull around me in times of danger.
his Scythe is my shield and sword. protecting me from the attacks of my enemies, while simultaneously striking them down unmercifully.

Death is the Prime agent of Change, and since all things are subject to Death at some point, Death holds power over all things, and can grant favors in any aspect if he/she/it so chooses.

I am of the school of thought that Death welcomes and accepts all people, as we are already it's children. we are walking corpses. skeletons wandering the earth...

in my own practice, I venerate Sancte Qayin and his Holy Bride. in my Practice, Senor La Muerte and La Santisima Muerte.

being an artist, Death inspires and drives me to continue with my art, not only Death, but The Devil, the Serpent guides my hands, whispers in my ears, guides my heart to Poetry, bringing from the Chaos of the inner mind something truly "Other" and beautiful.
all of my art contains Deathly imagery because that's what I want it to do. I want the person viewing the art to find their own personal symbolism in it. to contemplate their mortality. to become "at peace" with Death. for we will all meet it someday.
I want for us to be on friendly terms.
"Eritis sicut Deus, Scientes Bonum et Malum"- Mephistopheles
Wyrmfang
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Re: Death

Postby Wyrmfang » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:11 pm

Seeker666 wrote: Death is not simply the end of life, but an initiation to me.
Not necessarily to your post, but I just want to note, that death can never be "simply the end of life" in the sense of being something trivial. It is another matter if there is "life in death" in some metaphysical sense as most occultists believe, but in any case death is something very central to human existence. For example Husserl thought consciousness of one´s death to be the main condition for proper self-consciousness.
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Nefastos
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Re: Death

Postby Nefastos » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:44 am

Wyrmfang wrote:For example Husserl thought consciousness of one´s death to be the main condition for proper self-consciousness.


Which leaves a question whether the kind of religious people who believe in some kind of an immortal soul are living in denial, i.e. without a proper individualization.

But I think there're two kinds of concepts of immortality. The one where one projects the naive hope of changelessness into an idea of immortality, as if the world wouldn't demand a ability to constantly develop & change, turning to light all kind of previously unknown facets of being while eclipsing the ones we've faced. And the other being the intuitive ability to see the red thread of the immortal soul going through all that's most upright, best & blessed in our life, but without touching those parts of our being that are in a wrong way everyday, dull, foolish & empty of true meaning.

As a theistic occultist I believe the soul achieves immortality gradually, growing little by little from the core outwards. For many, that core is too deep within to have almost any kind of resemblance with the common little self, which then perishes in deaths. (Here in plural, because there's a death for all the principles of this human collage: death of a body, death of an astral spirit, death of a reasoning mind.)
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"

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