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Re: Honesty

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:51 pm
by Nefastos
Jiva wrote:I'm intrigued by what you mean when you say “contextual discrimination”? I am (probably incorrectly) interpreting this as similar to the English “white lie”. However in an earlier reply you stated that “a dishonest occultist dims his inner sight with those lies or half-truths he spreads”.

I didn't mean the so-called white lies. If my use of English held such indication, it was because of my lack of familiarity with the associations of the words/idioms in that language. :| Which is a great thing to come up in this discussion, for it is obvious that in addition to intellect, one also needs the correct instruments for sharing the ideas, i.e. correct use of language. (And I don't mean as much grammar as the cultural associations.) I'm glad I'm having this possibility to sharpen up my understanding of English in this forum - the last weekend I just received this forum as an area of responsibility in the brotherhood -, for I will have use for that kind of practice!

By the "contextual discrimination" I tried to say that we must think about the context we are talking, in order to be as meaningfully truthful as possible. That our words would not only be without a conscious lie, but "pregnant with truth" as well. For the world is full of meaningless truths, which wouldn't give anything to the people we are in conversation with. We can so easily give emphasis on wrong words or ideas, and withhold data that might help. I think that is one aspect of the teaching that "every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Matthew 12:36)

I must use a little different manner of speech whether I'm talking with my fellow brother, an atheist without any mystical interest, my little sister, my lady friend, a priest, or a clerk from some bureau. BUT it is also my responsibility - or so I strongly feel - to work myself so whole & complete a human being that I can always be wholly truthful, without playing games, without telling any white lies, and without making myself a completely different character in different situations. To try and slowly remove all masks but the personality itself, which is the supreme mask. It's just that these different conversations are able to harness different kinds of associations, so I can (and must!) add nuances to all the conversations. Words are never just words. They are that plus they give slight or heavy suggestions about other emotions, associations, energizing & barring possibilities. Even all straight words are hints to other truths. And it must be so, for as of yet our languages (even if we have mastered them, like our mother tongue) are unable to pass the exact truths. There's so much more attached to any thing but those things which we can say with yea or nay.

That is also one reason why I'm often talking quite much when with any people. I think it's my responsibility to give them as much "covert" information as possible.

We can also see that the emphasis on the development of skill for sharing ideas - even the problematic ones - is one of the those stressed in the lodge Lucifer, which is the most "diplomatic" lodge of the brotherhood. When we're doing work with other lodges, it's usually on the grounds that tries to help them somehow attain new communication possibilities & relations to people. But it's of uttermost importance that this is done in honesty, trying to keep our eyes in the Meaning even more than in words. In that way, words can become a true bridge.

Re: Honesty

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:31 am
by Jiva
Thank you for the clarification, it's much appreciated. I think the fault was almost certainly mine as your explanation has sparked some revelatory thoughts regarding two dreams I had in May as well as my actual day to day behaviour. Obviously I haven't had much time to develop these thoughts, but I think they will end up being the progenitors of something personally important.

What struck me most about your reply was this passage: “without making myself a completely different character in different situations”. This is extremely prescient as I essentially have two personalities: one lively and conversational when with good friends and another for every other situation that is introverted, often deliberately. When I am living through this second persona I often find myself completely isolated, which isn't a problem in itself, but when asked a question by someone I often stutter, get words in the wrong order etc. due to the shock of being jolted from my reverie. Any statements I therefore give are usually correct/truthful, but upon reflection have also often clumsily insinuated something unintended. As many of these are negative, misleading or inaccurate I suppose this is the unconscious alerting the conscious that something is wrong.

Ultimately I think this boils down to my continued selfishness in wishing the world was something it's not when I should instead be treating everything as related to the unity. I thought I'd recognised the extent of this problem when I obviously hadn't. Maybe this will be the focus of my diet/fast.

Your description of selecting words to deliberately imbue a conversation with additional meaning reminded me strongly of the theory of Deconstruction as outlined by Jacques Derrida. I've never actually read any of his work; instead I've read a book broadly analysing his theory and had discussions with university lecturers. Of Grammatology is now added to my book list though.

Mastering a language is incredibly difficult, even a mother tongue. For example, I knew at least one meaning of every word used in this post. Due to the subject I consulted the dictionary for a list of definitions for some key words (i.e. imbue and reverie) and discovered some additional meanings and associations I was either not aware of or had forgotten, all of which were incredibly apt for this topic. Synchronicity in action I guess.

By the way, “pregnant with truth” is an excellent phrase and one I'll remember.

Re: Honesty

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:02 am
by Sebomai
I am at a point in my life where it is very hard to verbalize the intense, revelations going on in my mind, heart, and spirit. I think, Fra. Nefastos, it has a lot to do with Fosforos awakening so very much in me. I cannot speak of the depths inside at this stage in my journey. That is truth and honesty for me... an honesty of silence. Hopefully an honesty that shines through when people realize there are inexpressible things going on underneath my ordinary goofy joking nature. That is still intact. But my ability to express anything profound has completely abandoned me and that is okay for now. Maybe that's just where I will stay and that's okay too.

But this topic of honesty has me thinking so much and I appreciate all your thoughts on it. Especially Fra. Nefastos and Jiva. The things you both have said have opened my mind a step further than even Fosforos did. Honesty.... I have a history of not always being truthful and it pains me to realize that and to find myself doing it still. Very rarely with big, important stuff, but all too often with minor things that don't need any untruths but I do it anyway. I am hoping change will come in an un-forced, un-violent way. A natural way. I think topics like this facilitate that. Even if I can't express to you all the exact thoughts and feelings going on inside me, I can still learn and internalize what all of you are able to express and grow from that. So, thank you.

Ave and Master Satan has certainly blessed me in finding this brotherhood and this forum.

Re: Honesty

Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:25 pm
by Sebomai
I just read a fascinating quote in The Routledge Philosophy Guidebook to Husserl and the Cartesian Meditations that applies very well to what Fra. Nefastos was saying about honesty, and also applies I think equally well to some of the material in Fosforos. "Indeed, transcendental phenomenology as characterized by Husserl as ultimately nothing but absolute self-explication. Philosophy is nothing other than absolute honesty. (Italics mine.)

One thing I got out of Fosforos is that all of us, whether we are explicitly characterizing ourselves as philosophers, and live a life of intellect, or we are more emotion based, are all aspiring to be philosophers in the sense that Fra. Nefastos uses in the text and, unless I am mistaken, the quote above ties in very strongly with that. The idea that, at the very least, starting with ourselves, we must attempt to be completely honest, for out of that, honesty with others and understanding of life, the universe, and spirituality shall grow.

I thought I'd share that quote with you all and see what you thought of it. I rather liked it a lot and I know it is something I strive for, not only in my occult work, but in everything from my music to the thoughts that pass through my head when I ride the bus.

Re: Honesty

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:49 pm
by Nefastos
I really like that quote; a lot. Too often I've heard word philosophy used in a way that makes it more as a "selected history of Western thinking", with emphasis on the first two words separately.

Honesty is the strangest thing in that it's always both deconstructing & reconstructing, and still it can & will have some objectively best possible presentation at any given time - so it's also perfect and ready in time & place. That can't be said of philosophy taken primarily as structures of thought. The latter is more like science.

Re: Honesty

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:05 pm
by Setheh

this is a very interesting topic which is even more containing within than any of the oceans existing on this planet because I cannot tell when and how someone is sincere, it is not so easy to recognize and I am always remaining skeptic because I know that the person's deeds will of course show what is his her's value and I also will not write what for me is sincerity maybe it could be said that the validity of the own's insights after experiencing the results of the fruits they produced, someone who is not sincere for me could be like a dust and everyone can clean the dust out of the desk so there should not be a problem at the end to deal with soemone whom we thought is sincere but was not, also other opportunities why the person is contradictory to own's statements may depend on a private life's events that were making him or her unnable to do what they promised like sickness or long working hours.